Last night my party started using the Ultimate Campaign and enthusiastically got to work designing and building an inn. After an extensive perusing of the list of rooms, teams etc, we wound up with a blueprint of a inn with a total of 10 rooms that would be fairly expensive to build.
The total cost came to 85 goods, 4 influence, 81 labor, and... 222 days of construction time.
Now, this is where I struggle a bit. The party is in Korvosa and we'll easily be able to gather the capital (goods, labor, influence etc) to build the inn in less than a week. The rules for constructing buildings stipulate that you add together the capital cost of each room, which includes construction time. This is made clear by the construction examples on page 91.
However, if the party are paying the total labor cost up front, wouldn't it make sense that we be able to start the work on multiple rooms at once?
Another problem I ran into was this: Furnishings is a room augmentation that is described as "wooden paneling, marble floors, fine ceramic teacups "etc. It provides benefits for the room's function. The build time on furnishings is 20 days. So if the group wants to refurnish five rooms, again... Add up the cost, add up the time, so it takes 100 days to install wooden paneling, lifelike paintings, bed canopies and teacups. Is there really only one interior designer in Korvosa?
Now, in all fairness there are rules for rushing building time by paying double, triple, or quadruple the cost of the labor of a room in order to get it finished faster. However I personally see that more as what you do when you suddenly you need a Observation Dome or whatever, stat!
And so I come to the safe old Rules Questions forum - am I reading this right?
Do you always add together the building time of all rooms in order to finish a building? Is there a way to start construction on multiple rooms at once in order to speed up building time?
Can I build it one room at a time and use that room while the other ones are building?
Finally, how does the Lyre of Building interact with the construction times as outlined in Ultimate Campaign?
I don't own the book so don't know about RAW or RAI. As an engineer I can say that many of today's building go up as one project with many teams working on each individual area. if nothing in the rules clearly states the GM's interpretations are you best bet.
Still as I said, it is very reasonable to me to have multiple things being done at the same time
You will note that while individual rooms have a construction time, buildings do not. As long as you can pay for all of the Capital at once, all of the rooms which make up the building are started at the same time, so the building as a whole only takes as long as the longest single room. Adding the furnishings augmentation takes 10 days, but there's nothing forcing you to wait for the rooms that you're augmenting to even be finished before you start that process, though the GM may have other ideas.
And even if you have a construction where every step can only be started once the previous is completed, having more walls still means you can have more people building the walls.
I would regard the building time in a way like "manhours". Get twice as many workers, get the work done in half the time. It's even mentioned that you can cut costs by 2, 3, or 4 by paying 2, 3, or four times the price. But you can only have so many people build the same wall, so there are limits how high you can get.
I would say build each room as if they were separate construction project happening at the same time. But of course you can't build a room on top of another room that does not exist yet. Since that would be difficult to press into a simple rule, I say use GM judgement to say how much progress must have been made at the lower stories before you can start with the higher ones.
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Not an engineer, but I would say it is mostly a question of GM adjudication.
You can't start to work on the second floor of a building until you have constructed at least the frame of the first floor.
For the furnishing someone must make the porcelain teacups and so on. There are enough crafters in the city to do multiple sets at the same time?
7 and a half months to build a large, luxury inn with old fashioned systems don't seem a long time. I think the problem is the players expectations of available downtime for their characters. Generally we expect something to happen every few weeks, not every few years.
You will note that while individual rooms have a construction time, buildings do not. As long as you can pay for all of the Capital at once, all of the rooms which make up the building are started at the same time, so the building as a whole only takes as long as the longest single room. Adding the furnishings augmentation takes 10 days, but there's nothing forcing you to wait for the rooms that you're augmenting to even be finished before you start that process, though the GM may have other ideas.
I hoped you were right, but buildings are not listed with construction time because that list assumes you are buying the building when it is already finished - it's stated in the text preceding the list of available buildings.
Furthermore, if you look at the example on page 91, you can read the following:
By adding up all the Goods, Influence, Labor, and Magic values in the Create and Time entries of the rooms’ stat blocks, you get a total of 33 points of Goods, 3 points of Influence, 32 points of Labor, and 90 days. By spending that capital, after 90 days of construction time your inn is finished.
Added emphasis to outline the specific section that troubles me.
Page 92, Time:
So by hiring additional laborers, you can reduce the total construction time for your inn to just under 56 days. If that timeframe isn't acceptable, you should construct the rooms you consider essential, pay extra labor for accelerated construction within your timeframe, then add on the other rooms as a separate project (for the same cost as if you had constructed them as part of the original inn).
I think it would be fine to treat each Furnishings upgrade as a separate project, allowing you to "construct" them in parallel, at the same time, as adding more furnishings isn't the same sort of "construction" as building a foundation, walls, roof, and so on.
All of this would be subject to the Spending Limit Per Day (page 80).
Page 92, Time:
So by hiring additional laborers, you can reduce the total construction time for your inn to just under 56 days. If that timeframe isn't acceptable, you should construct the rooms you consider essential, pay extra labor for accelerated construction within your timeframe, then add on the other rooms as a separate project (for the same cost as if you had constructed them as part of the original inn).
Before I reply to your post I just want to say thank you for adding the Ultimate Campaign - it's a huge hit in my group and we're all very happy that Paizo chooses to publish books like this. Keep up the great work!
As for the hasty construction quote: I referenced that rule in my original post, but I thought it was intended more a set of rules for specifically rushing a room that is suddenly needed very urgently (like the fortifications augmentation before a siege) instead of rules for construction time of large structures in general.
For instance I find it hard to explain how you can't start work on a Courtyard and a Common Room at the same time if you have the manpower (as near as I can tell, represented by Labor) to do both at the same time.
In my case the GM ruled that you could start multiple projects at the same time, with three conditions:
1. All required resources were on hand for each room at the start of the project.
2. The community has sufficient capital to cover the spending limit.
3. It has to make sense (my personal favorite). Ie you can start work on an anmial pen, farmlands, and a bedroom for house at the same time. You cannot simultaneously work on six floors worth of rooms in your mage's tower.
Finally, mister Reynolds: Would it be possible to to pick your brain on how magic interacts with construction time and costs? I mentioned the Lyre of Building in my original post, but it's not hard to think of other spells that would be useful in order to facilitate construction work.
For the sheer craziness of it: One of the suggestions that came up in play yesterday was to build each room separately off-location (50 feet or so apart), have one of our characters with a ridiculously high carry capacity lift up the room in question, then cast teleport on him to bring the room to where we want the inn located, and then have him put it down there with a minimum of fuss.
Think http://blumenthals.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/house-moving-3.jpg - but the house is resting on the back of a guy instead of on the truck equalivent of a train car.
For the sheer craziness of it: One of the suggestions that came up in play yesterday was to build each room separately off-location (50 feet or so apart), have one of our characters with a ridiculously high carry capacity lift up the room in question, then cast teleport on him to bring the room to where we want the inn located, and then have him put it down there with a minimum of fuss.
Think http://blumenthals.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/house-moving-3.jpg - but the house is resting on the back of a guy instead of on the truck equalivent of a train car.
Good brainstorming....
As for the hasty construction quote: I referenced that rule in my original post, but I thought it was intended more a set of rules for specifically rushing a room that is suddenly needed very urgently (like the fortifications augmentation before a siege) instead of rules for construction time of large structures in general.
Nope, nothing restricting this to emergencies. If you have the Labor, you can spend it.
For instance I find it hard to explain how you can't start work on a Courtyard and a Common Room at the same time if you have the manpower (as near as I can tell, represented by Labor) to do both at the same time.
Well, you could interpret it as "if you build the Courtyard before the rooms surrounded by it, you're going to have rooms workers carrying loads of bricks across your fancy flagstones and through your gardens, port-a-potties next to your decorative fountains, and so on. They're either going to cause delays in the Courtyard's construction (they're in the way of the people building your rooms, or because the facilities for those rooms workers have to be placed outside the Courtyard so they don't mess up the Courtyard).
In my case the GM ruled that you could start multiple projects at the same time, with three conditions:
That's a perfectly fair ruling (and the specific issues with #3 are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when building a Courtyard at the same time as rooms within it). The whole system is an abstraction, anyway, and is supposed to be flexible about such things.
Finally, mister Reynolds: Would it be possible to to pick your brain on how magic interacts with construction time and costs? I mentioned the Lyre of Building in my original post, but it's not hard to think of other...
I assume you're talking about using wall of stone for construction, and so on. Two things.
One, I'd treat that as Skilled Work (page 78) or Class Abilities (page 79) to earn Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic, and the GM can add a +2 for the "GM's best friend rule" if he feels your use of magic is especially suitable for that purpose. Note that Skilled Work rolls are usually mathematically more effective than Class Abilities rolls.
We didn't want Magic to overshadow other types of capital, otherwise spellcasters would yet again dominate the game. In development, Magic was more of a wildcard, and you could spend it 1-for-1 for any type of capital, but that ended up too good. However, if your GM is ok with it and believes your spellcasting is especially suited for the task, it's fine to make a 1-for-1 conversion.
I saw the first dozen or so posts on the lyre topic and one poster's estimation of the amount of Labor it provides seems fair (at first glance, at least).
In a way, you have mentioned the reason within your text:
Is there really only one interior designer in Korvosa?
Of course there isn't - but the goods you are spending represents *hiring* only one. Hiring more would be the equivalent of the rush rules mentioned. That's why spending more gets you a faster time.
@SKR
Thank you, that was very informative. We originally thought the lack of a table for how spells such as Fabricate, Wall of Stone, Shape Stone would interact with the construction rules etc was an oversight, but on behalf of the non-magic users its nice to see a system that doesn't favor the spellcaster. Now I just need to go google that lyre topic thread :)
In a way, you have mentioned the reason within your text:
Is there really only one interior designer in Korvosa?Of course there isn't - but the goods you are spending represents *hiring* only one. Hiring more would be the equivalent of the rush rules mentioned. That's why spending more gets you a faster time.
But if I were to simultaneously build two bars, one in Korvosa and one in Magnimar I'd pay the exact same cost in Capital as if the two rooms were adjacent despite (most likely) using two different contractors.
I guess what I'm wondering is why am I spending more labor to hire more people when the capital on the table is already sufficient to pay for two complete construction crews for each building?
Is there really only one interior designer in Korvosa?Yes there is. He's very busy, and don't you DARE say anything to upset him, or all of your Labor costs will double!
but, but, but... I'm just not quite sure if salmon was quite what we had in mind when we said we wanted to renovate the torture room. Though I must say it certainly does bring out the blue in your eyes!
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I guess what I'm wondering is why am I spending more labor to hire more people when the capital on the table is already sufficient to pay for two complete construction crews for each building?
Three word answer: interior decorator catfights.
I guess what I'm wondering is why am I spending more labor to hire more people when the capital on the table is already sufficient to pay for two complete construction crews for each building?Three word answer: interior decorator catfights.
I'd argue that that should be a circumstance bonus to my battle ring income modifier :D
I wonder if it is crossing a line to use project management software to play Pathfinder...
I wonder if it is crossing a line to use project management software to play Pathfinder...
My group's been using accountancy software to calculate our loot hauls for some time now :).
For anyone interested, I believe I found the post SKR was referring to when he mentioned the lyre discussion:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8x64/discuss&page=13?Pathfinder-Roleplayi ng-Game-Ultimate-Campaign#641
I'll leave the link here in case anyone else are wondering about the lyre and finds this thread through the search tool.