Joe M.
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The Flank trick (Animal Archive p. 9) reads:
Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening that foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.
I think I've got it right, let me know if you disagree.
- The animal will not automatically attempt to flank whatever it's attacking (via Attack trick or Defend trick)—you have to specifically command it to Flank.
- "It always takes attacks of opportunity" = when commanded to flank, the animal moves to the closest square from which it can flank the target (assuming a flank is available—otherwise animal moves to closest square from which it can threaten the target); when moving into position, the animal makes no attempt to avoid attacks of opportunity.
Sound good?
thistledown
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Rather annoying that the trick exists, as I knew plenty of people having their animals flank before - now they need a new trick to do it.
And most animals will never be able to. An animal with an int of 2 (the cap on most) can only have 6 tricks. Combat Training an animal fills all 6. (attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel)
| DM_Blake |
Animals should not naturally flank. Some things, like wolves, are known to attack the legs of their prey, but that is usually because they're chasing it so the rear legs are the first part they can reach, or they're surrounding it as a pack and the ones in front are distracting it while the ones from behind are attacking the prey that can't really watch them all. So yeah, flanking, but it's really a matter of deliberately trying to get behind, it's just spreading out and attacking as a pack without having to stand on each others' shoulders.
Also, animals don't know about attacks of opportunity. Most animals deliberately try to stay out of reach of anything or anyone they consider threatening, but not if the animal is attacking - then it just charges in and attacks. Straight line.
So, Attack trick should have the animal go from where it is to where the target is, in a straight line. Defend trick should put the animal between the target and whatever the animal needs to defend. Flank should get the animal to take the shortest obvious path to the opposite side of the target.
Animal style.
sowhereaminow
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Yes, you have it right. A good option is to use the attack command to get it into melee with a target, and then order it to flank on the next round if the target is still up and you (or a friendly) is in place to provide a possible flank.
The flank command is particularly useful for enemies who try to diagonal 5 foot step out of a flanking situation. The animal will try to maintain the flank by matching the diagonal instead of moving straight in to attack.
ShadowcatX
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they're surrounding it as a pack and the ones in front are distracting it while the ones from behind are attacking the prey that can't really watch them all. So yeah, flanking,
This is one of the best descriptions of flanking I've ever read. It is exactly what the flanking strategy is all about. And you're right wolves are especially well known for this. They are really quite intelligent creatures when you get right down to it.
And then you say:
but it's really a matter of deliberately trying to get behind, it's just spreading out and attacking as a pack without having to stand on each others' shoulders.
If they're just trying to spread out and not stand on each other's shoulders why are the ones in front distracting it so the ones behind it (ie. FLANKING) can attack?
| carn |
For many animals this trick is stupid, because they would instinctively do this anyway, e.g. wolfes encircle their prey anyway.
@DM Blake
Animals, especially hunters are unaware about the close combat rules of this world?
Evolution took care about those acting instinctively against the rules.
The rules of pathfinder are different to our world, therefore we cannot compare straight. But what is good in our world - encircling and attacking from behind - and done by animals, animals would alos instinctively do in a pathfinder world (at least animals genetically used to hunting and combat)
| Adamantine Dragon |
People who think animals don't know how to flank are revealing nothing but their ignorance about the cunning nature of carnivores.
It's not just wolves. Lions, hyenas, coyotes, killer whales, pretty much any carnivore that hunts in groups are quite adept at flanking, and they clearly understand what they are doing.
Animals are also keenly aware of the threat of physical attacks as they maneuver as well. Watch any video of mortal combat in the wild and you'll see both the animals doing all they can to avoid exposing themselves to attacks from others.
Studies on dogs indicate that dogs have a real problem with recognizing the threat of projectiles. But they are quite good at recognizing the threat a human with a stick presents.
There is a reason that humans who actually lived with and dealt with wild animals on a daily basis revered them so much. They recognized the cunning nature and innate intelligence of their adversaries.
| DM_Blake |
It's not just wolves. Lions, hyenas, coyotes, killer whales, pretty much any carnivore that hunts in groups are quite adept at flanking, and they clearly understand what they are doing.
Don't mistake spreading out so the whole pack can find room to make their melee attacks as a deliberate or calculated effort to place themselves at optimal positions for any real-world "flanking" benefits.
Animals understand that the best time to lunge forward and strike is when the prey takes its eyes off of the predator. Both predator and prey know this. Nevertheless, that won't stop two wolves from dragging down a deer by the back legs, or two lionesses from doing the same thing to a gazelle, both from behind, shoulder to shoulder (nowhere near flanking). Note that here we're talking about a pair, not a pack.
But if you get a half dozen wolves to take down that deer, they all spread out because it's the only way to make room for them to attack without climbing all over each other.
| mplindustries |
"It always takes attacks of opportunity" = when commanded to flank, the animal moves to the closest square from which it can flank the target (assuming a flank is available—otherwise animal moves to closest square from which it can threaten the target); when moving into position, the animal makes no attempt to avoid attacks of opportunity.
I disagree. I read "taking" attacks of opportunity as using them if enemies provoke.
The trick bothered me more than most because my reading suggests animals don't automatically make AoOs that enemies provoke.
I'm not really sure which interpretation I like better...
| Arizhel |
RAW, I believe you are correct, except that I believe an AC with Flanking always takes AoOs regardless of whether it has been ordered to flank any given enemy. It is a passive ability.
BUT for non-PFS:
If you regularly give the animals in combat AGAINST the players AoOs, you should allow the ACs AoOs regardless of the trick.
| carn |
Both predator and prey know this. Nevertheless, that won't stop two wolves from dragging down a deer by the back legs, or two lionesses from doing the same thing to a gazelle, both from behind, shoulder to shoulder (nowhere near flanking).
You are aware that Pathfinder flanking rules have nothing to do with reality?
In real life people have a facing and flanking (meaning enemies on opposite sides) does not confer some mysterious +2 bonus, but a "damn, i cannot see the attack of one coming" disadvantage.
Predator animals do in our world what is efficient, attacking from behind. In a pathfinder world animals would not try to attack from behind, as there is no behind. Instead they would have learned to do that "flanking" thing, which we in this world cannot even imagine, as we would have to start with imagining faced combatants, who somehow move in a way that they have no front and back side and can turn instantly 180°.
Diego Rossi
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DM_Blake wrote:
Both predator and prey know this. Nevertheless, that won't stop two wolves from dragging down a deer by the back legs, or two lionesses from doing the same thing to a gazelle, both from behind, shoulder to shoulder (nowhere near flanking).You are aware that Pathfinder flanking rules have nothing to do with reality?
In real life people have a facing and flanking (meaning enemies on opposite sides) does not confer some mysterious +2 bonus, but a "damn, i cannot see the attack of one coming" disadvantage.
Predator animals do in our world what is efficient, attacking from behind. In a pathfinder world animals would not try to attack from behind, as there is no behind. Instead they would have learned to do that "flanking" thing, which we in this world cannot even imagine, as we would have to start with imagining faced combatants, who somehow move in a way that they have no front and back side and can turn instantly 180°.
Look the eye position of animals that are usually prey. A rabbit field of vision is almost 360° with very good overhead vision.
Cattle and pigs field of vision is about 300°.A human field of vision is about 180°.
A dog field of vision is about 270°.
So a human is way easier to flank than a wolf or a rabbit. On the other hand we have better binocular vision and color vision than most animals. That enable us to make ranged attacks, something that can baffle most animals.
| james maissen |
The Flank trick (Animal Archive p. 9) reads:
Quote:Flank (DC 20): You can instruct an animal to attack a foe you point to and always attempt to be adjacent to (and threatening) that foe. If you or an ally is also threatening that foe, the animal attempts to flank the foe, if possible. It always takes attacks of opportunity. The animal must know the attack trick before it can learn this trick.I think I've got it right, let me know if you disagree.
- The animal will not automatically attempt to flank whatever it's attacking (via Attack trick or Defend trick)—you have to specifically command it to Flank.
- "It always takes attacks of opportunity" = when commanded to flank, the animal moves to the closest square from which it can flank the target (assuming a flank is available—otherwise animal moves to closest square from which it can threaten the target); when moving into position, the animal makes no attempt to avoid attacks of opportunity.
Sound good?
I disagree.
Tricks via handle animal are not really about teaching an animal to do something, but rather it's about informing them that you want them to change their priorities. The animal trusts you, so when you tell it to do stupid/crazy things (from its perspective), it will still do them.
For example:
1. Attack. The animal might not have attacked without this command (it might have retreated or kept distance, etc), or it might not have attacked that specific enemy when others seemed more dangerous/tasty. Using this trick informs the animal that you want it to attack a specific foe right now, despite what it would otherwise think would be the best course of action. The 2nd attack trick tells it to attack those strange creatures that it would rather avoid/disengage than fight.
2. Down. The animal doesn't automatically know when you DON'T want it to continue/start attacking. This trick tells him not to attack a perfectly tasty rabbit that the kind human is offering it (in your eyes the wizard carrying his familiar), nor to respond to an attack that it it's mind would be the 'obvious' response.
3. Flank. This gives the animal a new set of priorities. It informs them that providing the flank is the most important contribution it is making to the combat. If the animal is 'set on' this one target, but in melee with another.. What would normally happen if the target moves away, but the other continues to attack it? It would seem insane to leave his friend/master and not attack this other to possibly double move to be adjacent to the 'target'. But this trick informs the animal that you want him/her to do just that.
-James
| RuyanVe |
Sure, the tricks give the AC/animal a new set of priority--but why should an animal closing/circling/fighting an opponent move cautionless and incur AoO when it has Acrobatics as a class skill?
I know you can do more with that skill than tumbling/avoiding AoO--but its still within the rules set given!
I think the "It always takes attacks of opportunity." part meant "It always takes its attacks of opportunity against the flanked target and never against other targets.".
To me it seem the more reasonable reading of that phrase. Sadly the trick description isn't well written.
Interesting--and much more to my liking--interpretation. Sounds too good to be true, though.
Ruyan.