You can, however, take a feat you are not yet qualified to use, and it will remain unusable until you are qualified to use it.
I don't think this is true.
I've seen this original question come up before, and I believe the consensus was that if you gain a feat when you level, you must take the feat at that time; you can't hold off until the following level to meet an additional prerequisite and then 'spend' the feat.
That said, talk with your GMs, as many GMs will allow this as a table rule.
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Weird. I could have sworn I saw a thread that said the opposite, that you could take a feat, but simply not be able to use it at all until you met its reqs. Oh well. Use his thread for the answer I guess.
You did, its right here.
I don't think the idea of picking feats before you can use them passes my common sense test... If your (BAB +9) character is killed off at level 9, should you be able to select 3 feats that require a BAB of +8 or higher? If you say yes initially, would you allow a player to join your game and get his character killed off every X levels just to remake a character of the same class and general build, but more optimal feats since doesn't have to take the previous X levels of play into consideration?
I sort of understand why Sean said it was ok, but Sean was expressing his opinion at that point, not the rules and with no official errata (the post WAS marked no staff response required), it was nothing more than just that. Now, if a DM wanted to make it a house rule, then that's completely acceptable and it would be that DM's responsibility to guard against abuse by his players. This is, however, the Rules forum, so none of that matters. What matters is...
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus or other quality designated [/b]in order to select[/b] or use that feat. Emphasis, Mine.
Of course, Ultimate Campaign gives you a work-around.
Let's say you want to take Weapon Focus as your first feat at level 1. The problem is, you are not a member of a full BAB class and thus do not qualify for that feat. So take some other feat that you do qualify for instead -- preferably one you won't miss when you lose it later.
After you reach 2nd level, you qualify for that Weapon Focus feat. As soon as you have sufficient money and down time, you retrain that feat to Weapon Focus.
This approach is actually better than leaving a feat slot open because you do not have to choose between an immediate benefit and a deferred benefit -- and the cost of retraining is usually relatively trivial by the time you are ready to do it.
That alone is worth buying UC (dangit, can't they come up with a name that didn't use the same acronym as a previous book??) ultimate campaign for optimizers. No longer do you have to figure out what level you took which feat at. Just track which ones were granted from class bonus feats, and which weren't. Leave some gold on the side for "retraining" whatever needs to be, and you can pick all the fancy feats you want for maxing out your lvl 20 whatever.
That alone is worth buying UC (dangit, can't they come up with a name that didn't use the same acronym as a previous book??)
I suggest UCbt and UCmp. Not as quick, but hey, someone's gotta lay down a standard...
OK, I'm done searching, I'll wait for someone to prove me wrong and find what I missed. Until then, I didn't find anything in the RAW or FAQ that says you can't delay taking a feat.
Other class abilities can be delayed. For example, what if a wizard reaches level 3 but doesn't have any 2nd level spells in his spellbook. Suppose he also chooses to learn 2 new 1st level spells (allowed by RAW, but maybe questionable by logic). Now he cannot prepare any 2nd level spells. He has, in effect, made choices that prevent his use of his new class ability.
If a character gains a feat and doesn't train a new feat right away, he is also making choices that prevent his use of his new ability.
I don't see it as being different.
Sure, maybe in some cases, a character can get a feat one level sooner than he normally would have, such as a paladin delaying selecting a 7th level feat choice until he turns 8th level and takes Improved Critical (otherwise he would have had to wait until 9th level to get it). It seems a fair trade for having to go through all of 7th level without taking his latest feat.
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DM_Blake > your wizard could still cast silent or still 1st level spell. he has the 2nd level "slots" for memorisation
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
I don't read it as optional "make sure to take steps in order"
I see delaying a feat as stepping over the fighter ability to retrain feats of lower level using the current level.
e.g. level 1: cleave. level 6, retrain cleave to lunge
this is explicitly allowed as a class feature. while not exactly the same as delaying, it allows the same kind of power (I take Lunge with my level-5 feat)
I suggest UCbt and UCmp. Not as quick, but hey, someone's gotta lay down a standard...
Personally I hope to see Ultimate Combat remain UC and Ultimate Campaign be referred to as UCa, UCm or UCmp - there's a hell of a lot of posts and guides that refer to Ultimate Combat as UC and if you alter that meaning then those posts/guides will be frustrating people for years.
It's all about that backward compatibility :-)
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CRB states : "When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats."
Not much room for not taking a feat there. The RAW answer is No. Of course, negotiating a houserule with your GM is always a solution ;-)
Ninja-ed
RAW the only correct answer is no.
However, my players are allowed to leave one (and just one) slot open for a later level. Vital strike comes to mind, for example.
This is nice for some characters, but not an overall 'bowl'-buster :)
I suggest UCbt and UCmp. Not as quick, but hey, someone's gotta lay down a standard...Personally I hope to see Ultimate Combat remain UC and Ultimate Campaign be referred to as UCa, UCm or UCmp - there's a hell of a lot of posts and guides that refer to Ultimate Combat as UC and if you alter that meaning then those posts/guides will be frustrating people for years.
It's all about that backward compatibility :-)
how about UCo and UCa or UCb and UCp? Why use more letters than necessary?
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how about UCo and UCa or UCb and UCp? Why use more letters than necessary?I suggest UCbt and UCmp. Not as quick, but hey, someone's gotta lay down a standard...Personally I hope to see Ultimate Combat remain UC and Ultimate Campaign be referred to as UCa, UCm or UCmp - there's a hell of a lot of posts and guides that refer to Ultimate Combat as UC and if you alter that meaning then those posts/guides will be frustrating people for years.
It's all about that backward compatibility :-)
I prefer UCamp. 2 syllabes, easy to understand and to pronounce.
You should check the Ultimate Campaign thread for further exploration of this naming topic ;-)
how about UCo and UCa or UCb and UCp? Why use more letters than necessary?
Well, UC for Ultimate Combat because it doesn't make a lot of old forum threads, class guides etc confusing, as for UCmp - that was just one option. Personally I like it because reading Cmp aloud sounds like "camp", the first four letters in campaign. It's a little mental reminder of which book you're talking about.
I'll plus one on the UCamp. No need to make it cryptic.
I'm liking Ucamp too. +1
um. page 112 CRB under feat prerequisites, it says "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite."
Doesnt that indicate a player can hold off taking a feat until he can qualify for it?
um. page 112 CRB under feat prerequisites, it says "A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite."
Doesnt that indicate a player can hold off taking a feat until he can qualify for it?
No, it means things like Vital Strike with a BAB +6, can be taken at 6th level by a fighter, which is when he gains the prerequisite of a +6 BAB.
It says nothing about holding feats gained at levels before you reach a prerequisite.