| Obi Kemnebi |
That is an age-old question. It depends on if you're a rule-monger and how much experience you have with the game as both a player and a GM. If you've only played one or two campaigns, or only ever played fighters, etc, then I would not recommend inventing or modifying any spells/effects/rules just yet. If you have a really experienced GM who can help you through it (and who can keep a clear separation between player knowledge and character knowledge, if he's a player in your campaign) then there's a bit of lee-way. But I'd still be careful how much rule-bending you do in any case; it takes a lot of practice and planning to bend a game without breaking it.
| Cuteshark |
I should note: this would be a random side adventure, more filler than substance, and would not ultimately affect the overall story, just help flesh out this one particular scene. The rule bending would only be in reference to where the encounter takes place, and allow the day's plot make a bit more sense...
| Wrothgar |
In that case, it sounds fine to me; however, it might be easier to tell with more specifics. The main thing is that changes you make should make the game more fun, and the players should perceive it that way. Also, the changes should not seem arbitrary. For example, if you realize your BBEG is losing the fight against the PCs too easily, and decide to arbitrarily increase the damage from his fireball from 6d6 to 10d6, that might cause the players to feel that you were abusing your power. Of course, this depends on your players as well. Some players are much more sensitive than others, and will be offended by even minor adjustments of the rules, while others will not be so easily upset.
Does that help?
uriel222
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What game are you playing? Both in terms of published game (Pathfinder, D&D, GURPS, etc.) and the game actually in play at your table.
Let me explain:
Pathfinder (like 3.x D&D) is, at it's heart, a game of tactical battle. The powers, abilities, classes, and adventures of the PCs are built around that. As that kind of game, the players are presented with a tactical problem which they need to solve using the resources their characters bring to the table. If this is all your game is, then your players may find it frustrating if you arbitrarily change the rules, just like if you started changing rules halfway through a game of Monopoly, or chess. Even if the GM isn't directly competing with the players, he is still the one presenting the "problem", and rules changes make that problem poorly defined ("So, how does Create Pit work this time?").
However, even though tactics are it's beating heart, Pathfinder is not just about combat. The rules, powers and abilities of the characters can also be used in social, non-combat ways. That said, they are still presented in a tactical manner. Your Bluff score is given a specific value, not just "good". Charm Person lasts a specific number of rounds, and has a specific DC to resist. So, even outside of combat, Pathfinder still presents the same tactical problem solving, and GM "modifications" can still be harmful to the players' sense of agency (if the rules can change at whim, what does it matter what choices they make?).
But, just because this is the game as written, doesn't mean it's the way every group plays. Sure, some groups insist on hard-core "RAW" rules (and even balk at changes to published adventures), mostly in convention or Society play, but other groups expect a more narrative-based approach. Here, they expect the GM to "fudge" a little, so they don't get stuck (or all die), or to make things a bit harder when the combat is too easy.
Even here, though, a good GM must be careful to never be too blatant about the changes. If your pit needs to be larger, would it be possible with meta-magic? Or maybe it was "Greater Create Pit", a spell only this NPC had, and which was curiously torn from his spellbook.
If your group prefers a strong story "feel" to absolute rules orthodoxy, then you can, and should, make changes. But the hallmark of a great GM is: they never knew you changed anything.
| Cuteshark |
Yes, greatly. Everyone is pretty lax with the rules to begin with, and with the exception of the BBEG outright killing their character, they pretty much roll with the punches. For the purposes of this idea, the BBEG isn't even encountered, its just a bunch of his lackeys sent to threaten a certain player (highlighting an aspect of their back story) It would add to the effect if the players could fall into a pit /portal that brought them to a different plane so that they could fight there - learn some key info - and be ejected from that dimension once they complete their killing things. However... I can't really find a specific way to achieve this other than by saying "the ground you caves in, and you find yourselves in [x] plane." and hope they just go with it.
| Wrothgar |
Ok, thank you for the description. This helps a lot. I think that in this case, what you are suggesting would be fine. The purpose of the encounter is to get the PCs to another plane to further the story line. As long as the players understand (out of game) that this is a plot device, it should be acceptable.
One thing I have found to work is to make the pit (in this case) some kind of powerful magic, perhaps now lost to users of arcane/divine power. If the players are expecting something like this before the encounter, they will not resent it. Since the magic is inaccessible to both the PCs and NPCs, they will not feel that they are being treated unfairly.
Malag
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Often enough you can create spell effects with regular spells, either by having them metamagiced, higher level or a combination of two effects. You just have to know what to search. This way, you minimize the creation of unknown magical effects and it provides you immediately with a description of spells.
Ascalaphus
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Just say that the Create Pit spell (which creates an extradimensional pit) had a weird interaction with a local magic field that caused it to malfunction, but that the "planar overlay" is a temporary thing.
Allow the dude with Knowledge: Planes to easily deduce that as long as they're within the AoE of the pit when the overlay ends, they'll get back home. That way the players will be focusing on the risk of not getting back in time rather than that you bent the rules :)
| Anguish |
In your scenario what I'd do is make it clear (if the players succeed at a Spellcraft check) that what they've encountered is NOT create pit. That spell works the way it works. This spell clearly works differently, is more powerful, and has other effects.
A GM can present fair and consistent rules while still managing their plot as long as everyone at the table gets it that for Big Things, there are abilities and powers that the players aren't aware of. There's always a monster a few CR higher which might be able to do unexpected things. There's always a spell a few levels higher that does more. Don't go overboard, don't lean on this regularly and you're good to go.
What I mean is that if you craft a BBEG who has DR/lilacs, that's okay. He's a BBEG, rare, and has access to very funky resources. Without a bunch of flowers to hit him with, incoming physical damage is going to be reduced. (Actually, I once DID stat a BBEG with regeneration defeated by an extract of roses.) Just don't do this sort of thing often. Most bad guys should behave normally.
| Mark Hoover |
Magic is supposed to be frightening. Maybe they triggered a dimension door device; maybe as A-bomb says the spell hit a lay line and crossed planes; maybe the BBEG gave their minions a rune WAY above their pay grade. The point is putting the players in a place you want them. This can be achieved in so many different ways you may not even have to bend the rules.
Years ago there was a dungeon magazine with a side adventure I updated to 3.0. The adventure involved a bunch of kobolds finding and learning to use a horn that summoned fog instead of blowing gusts of wind. I wanted the party to go into the spooky forest but they weren't biting on the plot hook I'd dangled, so I dropped the kobolds on them.
The horn sounded at night, and their roadside campsite began filling w/fog. From the forest came the sound of movement and the sentry PCs noted that suddenly their pack horse was loose (kobolds cut the line under cover of fog). The sentry warned everyone and they got up but weren't getting attacked. They saw shapes moving through the fog but couldn't hit them (failed miss chance) so they surrounded and engaged one in melee.
It tumbled and fled, having taken enough damage to wound it but not kill it. The horn blasted again (I described the sound like a baleful moan, not a horn blast, so they figured undead) and when the fog DID finally lift a minute later they were alone. Their horse had fled into the woods and the wounded creature left a trail in it's wake.
They had all their weapons and armor but were still low enough level to be concerned about the horse. They figured if they didn't get after it the beast and all their gear would be lost. So they finally became real adventurers, screwed up their courage, and went into the spooky forest.
I avoided being called a Rail Baron (railroading them where I wanted them to go with the side trek) by letting them bypass the obvious plot hook, attacking them on the road, and using the rules to let the scene play out as it would normally. The kobolds wanted to rob, not murder, the camped adventurers. They spooked the horse and loosed it into the woods, intending to follow it for whatever valuables they could get. They achieved this objective by using the skills and abilities they had at their disposal.
After the party caught up to the kobolds they had a hard fight and nearly died. But they did end up killing the leader with the horn. When all was said and done, they had this cool new toy. They also ended up in the woods where they then found the dragon tracks and signs I wanted them to so that they could trace those back to the dungeon I was trying to get them to.
If you have to bend, or even break the rules, that's totally within your purview as GM. However you have an awful lot of tools in that Bat-Utility-Belt we call Pathfinder. Consider these options alongside your "pitfall" when planning the adventre.
| Cuteshark |
thanks all for the helpful advice, decided that I could un-complicate things by reworking the set up to the encounter a bit and giving an NPC a scroll of Mirage Arcana because of his continued devotion to BBEG, which he'll use, while invisible, to a) confuse the players a bit, b) change the landscape into one which would resemble that of the plane I wanted to have them all transport to, and c) provide me with some entertainment if the PC's try to climb rocks / lean against things and fall right through. sure it might break the spell, but hey, still worth it.
Lincoln Hills
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There was one occasion (running a conversion of a 1st-edition module) in which the adventure relied on the PCs falling into a hole and ending up in a caved-in area that they had to find their way out of. [Hey! Let me finish before you start tuning up on how unfair that was!] I felt that the players deserved some compensation, so I handed them each a post-it note on which I had written 'I Made My Saving Throw' and explained that I owed them a successful save later on in the campaign, but - just as I had not rolled before saying they fell in - they had to give me the marker back before rolling. They intelligently saved these markers for the next time I called for a significant check against their worst saves and redeemed them; thus hard feelings were averted.
On the broader point: When you're running combat, you should be 'fair' - at least in terms of every resource the enemy brings to bear having a logical source, even if that source is not yet known to the players. When it comes to the broader story, don't be afraid to bend mechanics: the biggest example is any NPC vs. NPC battle - the players are more interested in who wins than in sitting through a bunch of dice-rolling from behind the screen, so cut to the chase based on which outcome would make a better story. Similarly, if a mighty plague comes o'er the land, you can simply assume that the number of people cured each day with remove disease was less than the number who fell ill, without getting into the minutia of "How many characters per thousand can cast remove disease and how often? What's the incubation rate? What's the infection rate?" The plague is the backdrop to the story and sticking to the details isn't important.