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So, the entry on Stunning Fist in the Core book states that you can make a Stunning Fist attack once per day per 4 levels. The Special section notes though that monks get it for free and can make one attack per monk level plus 1 per every 4 levels in non-monk classes.
However, what if you take an archetype, like Hungry Ghost, that gives up Stunning Fist but still want to spend a Feat on it (for Dragon Ferocity for example)? If a monk gains Stunning Fist through a feat selection, does he still get to use it once per day per monk level? Or is it treated as though he were a non-monk?
I think it would be 1 per day per four levels. The pathfinder team put out a FAQ related to this. It seems that if you give up a feat to take an archetype you can't take it later as a class bonus feat. That would seem to suggest that even if you spend a character level feat on it, you're not taking it as a Monk.
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I disagree. Look at the wording for Elemental Fist:
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
It's basically the same thing as Stunning Fist except the archetype Monk of the Four Winds gets it for free instead of the standard monk. But it the description says that a monk, generic term, can use it once per monk level, not that a monk of the four winds, specifically, can use it once per monk level. Stunning Fist can be argued to have used the generic "monk" because archetypes didn't exist yet, but Elemental Fist is almost certainly using the generic term on purpose. So if a standard monk takes Elemental Fist as a normal feat then they get to use it once per monk level. Stunning Fist should work the same way - any member of the monk class can use it once per day even if they have an archetype that doesn't give it as a bonus feat.
The FAQ Speaker linked is a bit different, since it's referring to abilities you can't buy with normal feats (like Wholeness of Body). That said, since the extra conditions inflicted with Stunning Fist (like the extra Elemental Fist damage dice) are not described in the feat itself as applying to generic monks I think that these depend on getting the feat as a monk bonus.
While the text about a monk receiving Stunning Fist as a monk bonus feat, and that of a monk's special usage of the feat appear together, they ARE separate sentences, and, at least by RAW, should be interpreted as being separate. That is, a monk that possesses Stunning Fist may use the ability once per day per class level of monk. It doesn't specify that you must acquire the feat in a particular fashion.
RAI on this are murky, especially since there was no way to NOT get Stunning Fist as a monk when the feat was written--archetypes didn't exist then.
The RAW is clear, while the RAI may not be, at least due to later additions and alterations. Personally, I'd allow all monks to retain the same type of usage of the feat, irrespective of the method of acquisition.
I would say you do get it once per level as that is a special quality of the feat. If you had an archetype that traded away the class ability then you could only stun with the feat, not the other conditions (fatigued at 4th, sickened at 8th, etc.).
I disagree. Look at the wording for Elemental Fist:
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.It's basically the same thing as Stunning Fist except the archetype Monk of the Four Winds gets it for free instead of the standard monk. But it the description says that a monk, generic term, can use it once per monk level, not that a monk of the four winds, specifically, can use it once per monk level. Stunning Fist can be argued to have used the generic "monk" because archetypes didn't exist yet, but Elemental Fist is almost certainly using the generic term on purpose. So if a standard monk takes Elemental Fist as a normal feat then they get to use it once per monk level. Stunning Fist should work the same way - any member of the monk class can use it once per day even if they have an archetype that doesn't give it as a bonus feat.
Well put. I agree.
The FAQ Speaker linked is a bit different, since it's referring to abilities you can't buy with normal feats (like Wholeness of Body). That said, since the extra conditions inflicted with Stunning Fist (like the extra Elemental Fist damage dice) are not described in the feat itself as applying to generic monks I think that these depend on getting the feat as a monk bonus.
Yeah; this is a matter of disallowing something cheesy like picking an archetype that replaces ability X, and using Quinggong to still get ability X afterward, but replacing something else for X.
The issue of Stunning Fist is whether a line of rules text in the feat description was intended to apply only to monks who received the feat for free, or to all monks. Again, as written, it's for all monks. And, yes, the additional abilities that the core monk gains with Stunning Fist should ONLY be applicable if you retain Stunning Fist as a class feature, since those abilities don't appear as being granted anywhere else.
And, yes, the additional abilities that the core monk gains with Stunning Fist should ONLY be applicable if you retain Stunning Fist as a class feature, since those abilities don't appear as being granted anywhere else.
That was kinda my point (although apparently I didn't make it very well :-). A standard monk gains the ability to use stunning fist 1/monk level/day as a class feat. The OP gave up stunning fist as a class feat to gain the Hungry Ghost archetype. I think that even if he takes stunning fist as a character feat, he shouldn't get the class feat advantages including extra uses and additional abilities.
And, yes, the additional abilities that the core monk gains with Stunning Fist should ONLY be applicable if you retain Stunning Fist as a class feature, since those abilities don't appear as being granted anywhere else.That was kinda my point (although apparently I didn't make it very well :-). A standard monk gains the ability to use stunning fist 1/monk level/day as a class feat. The OP gave up stunning fist as a class feat to gain the Hungry Ghost archetype. I think that even if he takes stunning fist as a character feat, he shouldn't get the class feat advantages including extra uses and additional abilities.
I was referring to the ability of the core monk to use Stunning Fist to cause the fatigued, staggered, sickened, blinded, deafened, or paralyzed conditions, as these are ONLY listed under the monk Stunning Fist class feature.
The 1/level usage appears in the feat's wording, with no caveats, so the RAW at least indicates that even a monk that gives up the Stunning Fist class feature will get the additional uses per day.
Compare:
Stunning Fist (Ex): At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This condition replaces stunning the target for 1 round, and a successful saving throw still negates the effect. At 4th level, he can choose to make the target fatigued. At 8th level, he can make the target sickened for 1 minute. At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds. At 16th level, he can permanently blind or deafen the target. At 20th level, he can paralyze the target for 1d6+1 rounds. The monk must choose which condition will apply before the attack roll is made. These effects do not stack with themselves (a creature sickened by Stunning Fist cannot become nauseated if hit by Stunning Fist again), but additional hits do increase the duration.
Which has NO language regarding number of uses per day, and merely says, "you get this feat," and then explains some additional benefits monks gain, to:
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
The second sentence isn't dependent upon the first, and has no qualifiers.
I understand point you're making and I certainly didn't mean to take your words out of context. I think that if a character gives up a class feat to take an archetype he shouldn't be allowed to get that feats benefits by the backdoor. That's what I was trying to point out with the link to the faq in my first answer. Just my opinion.
I'd probably try to make the same argument if there was an archetype that gives up Elemental Fist (not that there's an archetype that does that, elemental fist isn't a class feat).
Heh. This was exactly my conundrum. Seems as though it can be argued either way -- though I agree that no matter what, the monk at the very least would not get the extra conditions. I think maybe the best argument for distinguishing the two (1/day/monk level and the extra conditions) is that the language about the 1/day/level appears in the feat description but the extra conditions do not.
At any rate, I'll simply ask my GM since she has ultimate say regardless, was just curious if there was a consensus. Its enough to make me consider whether I want to take the Hungry Ghost as opposed to say Ki Mystic, both fit with my character concept but the Hungry Ghost fits more with my character's darker side.
Ultimately I'll just have to decide if I want to spend a feat on Stunning Fist to get Dragon Ferocity but have easier access to the Vicious Stomp (i.e. better likelihood of actually tripping) or if I just want to potentially save both feat slots and get some other goodness along with everything Ki Mystic grants.
Hrmmmmm, the solution may just be to find a second game. :p
As the one dissenting voice I think it's fair to say that you did get a consensus. Go with the majority rule, I don't think it'll break the game either way.
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I'd probably try to make the same argument if there was an archetype that gives up Elemental Fist (not that there's an archetype that does that, elemental fist isn't a class feat).
Elemental Fist is a class feat for the Monk of the Four Winds - they get it as a bonus at 1st level with added goodies (extra damage dice as they level up) instead of getting Stunning Fist. And monks, generally, get to use Elemental Fist more often whether or not they get it as a class feat like the Monk of the Four Winds does.
A standard monk has exactly the same relationship with Elemental Fist as a monk giving up Stunning Fist has with that feat - the standard monk has effectively given up Elemental Fist for Stunning Fist.
EDIT: thanks for dissenting gracefully, though.