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I am making a character for my first PFS game which will be at Gen Con. My buddy is playing a cleric of Cayden Cailean and I am considering playing a paladin to adventure as his "bodyguard." I would like to make my paladin dedicated to Cayden Cailean for consistency reasons.
I notice that the paladin must be dedicated to a god and must be LG. But I don't see where it says that your alignment must be the same as your deity.
What is the ruling for PFS paladins?
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There are smarter people than me, when it comes to PFS rules, but I believe the rule is that Paladins must be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. So, no, you could not play a Paladin of Cayden.
As I understand it, the reasoning is that following a deity who is too far away from LG creates too much of a conflict between following your god and following your paladin code.
Some alternatives that you may want to consider include an inquisitor of Cayden (if you want to keep the official religious connection) or a fighter who is devoted to Cayden (if you want to play up the bodyguard angle).
EDIT: Apparently people are faster than me, as well as smarter. . .
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Characters can elect to worship any deity listed in a table of gods in the Core Rulebook, The Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods and Magic, or any other source listed as an official Additional Resource. Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity. For clerics, this is an especially important choice, since the deity’s alignment determines whether the cleric channels positive or negative energy, a decision with significant tactical implications for the cleric and her allies. Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source receive their powers from a deity...
So there's the citation for why you can't have a paladin of Cayden Cailean (since a paladin must be LG and Cayden is CG - two alignment steps away). An Order of the Star cavalier or samurai may be exactly what you are looking for (flavor-wise); they are specifically dedicated to protecting members of a faith. If you don't want to give up spellcasting, an inquisitor is an excellent choice as well.
Is there a paladin analog for Cayden Cailean? Perhaps an archetype for a fighter?
Depends on what you want. Anyone can be a CG hero except the paladin and monk. You could play a drunk barbarian who is CG and devout of Cayden, or a regular fighter who spends his evenings partying and mornings beating up bad guys and fighting tyranny. I once played a melee alchemist worshipper of Cayden.
So what exactly do you want out of a Paladin of Cayden? The only similar mechanics I know are part of the Chevalier prestige, which I don't believe is PFS legal. Roleplaying though you can do with a lot of classes.
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Thanks for the suggestions. It looks like the only two ways to have a front line combatant with a splash of divine influence would be Inquisitor or Order of the Star Cavalier. The other martial classes would have to be done with role playing (or maybe traits?)
I'll check out the Cad fighter -- thanks for that suggestion. And thanks everyone for the help. Maybe we'll see you at Gen Con?
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Okay so to help you with your character build why don't you describe what you want the character to do mechanically first?
Just Paladin of X diety isn't the best for that as it leaves a lot of things left unsaid.
Good point. What I need is a front line fighter ("party tank" for those who play MMO's) ideally with some sort of connection to Cayden Cailean either in terms of theme or game mechanic. It seems like Inquisitor is too squishy. Cavlier seems good but there seems to be emphasis on a mount which strikes me as something that might not come up much. Are mounts often useful in PFS games?
I am imagine a fighter archetype like "temple guard" or something similar. Cad is flavorful but mechanically he shouldn't "tank." Drunken Brute can tank -- I think -- but sounds like a bit of a bully rather than a defender of the weak.
Don't forget Oracle and Cleric. They also have plenty of divine righteousness backing them. Ranger casting is technically divine, though not the divine justice sort.
Why do people always seem to gloss right over the cleric?
A full caster that can melee sounds silly maybe? I remember when they could get full BAB fulltime...
Cavalier.
It's paladin-like and without alignment restrictions.
It also has no auras or smite, and relies on a mount that he may very well not be able to use in the adventure. Barbarians can have a righteous rampage and be NG. They can also be paladin like. Rangers can get a mount and spell casting, and with those skill points can fill a variety of roles. They also have full BAB and plenty of other nifty things.
Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean is a divine-assisted melee type, and having lots of skills is rogue-y and therefore Cayden-ish.
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Some less strait out Paladin simulator ones--
Martial artist (monk w/o alignment restrictions) 'barfighter'.
Herald of the cleric, rather like Thais. Maybe a combo caviler/bard?
Oracle who was given a cool insight that was Caiden inspired. Maybe they had a lifechanging experience when drinking?
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There's the houndmaster archetype if the idea of being without your mount upsets you.
How often are mounts useful in PFS games, in your experience? For some reason I keep imagining city adventures and dungeon crawls. Is that the norm?
Dogs seem very Cayden Cailean friendly -- but perhaps I'm just projecting . :)
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Human Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean
S: 16 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 14 Ch: 10 (20 pt human)
Domain: Chaos
This domain allows you to touch an attacker 3+WIS times per day to force its next d20 roll to roll twice and take the worse result. This can be good in combination with going up and making an enemy susceptible to your cleric buddy's spell, or to delay a monster's affectivity while your party gets better set.
Alternate Domain: Travel
+10 foot movement to get in place plus the ability to ignore difficult terrain? A cliché domain, but very potent to getting your paladin where he needs to be to intercept foes before they get to the party.
Okay, now let's focus on the "squishy".
You are going to start with 8 + 2 (from CON) + 1 (favored class) hitpoints, or 11 out of the gate.
Your AC is going to be 10 + 5 (scale mail) + 2 (heavy shield) + 2 (DEX) = 19 out of the gate.
(Note: a light shield will save you a move action to be able to cast a spell while having your weapon out, at the cost of 1 AC tho. Eventually, you'll want a light shield full time, but at first level, a heavy shield works fine)
11 hitpoints with a 19 AC isn't too shabby.
But, if that's not enough, then you have two feats to bump this. Pick Toughness for +3 hitpoints and Dodge for +1 AC. This will net you 14 hitpoints at an AC of 20. That's stellar for level 1.
For spells, you can also choose additional "tanking" spells to support you if needed. These can include Shield of Faith (+2 AC), Divine Favor (+1/+1 to your weapon attacks), and Cure Light Wounds (to make you more hitpoint self-sufficient, or to emergency heal your buddy). Personally, for a tanking focus, I'd pick Shield of Faith and Divine Favor as your two spells. Pick up a scroll of Cure Light Wounds for an emergency.
You only get two spells per day to start, but that gives you a potential of AC 22 for 2 fights (expecting ~4ish for an adventure). Pick and choose your battle to make sure your spells hit on a "tough" fight.
And finally, you have the...
Awesome, thanks. That sounds about perfect.
How often are mounts useful in PFS games, in your experience? For some reason I keep imagining city adventures and dungeon crawls. Is that the norm?There's the houndmaster archetype if the idea of being without your mount upsets you.
I've usually seen mounts put to the side sadly. In an open planes with charge lanes they do fantastic! Not so much in a dungeon or building or anything they can't squeeze into.
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You're always going to run into times where certain class features are less than useful. The mount is no exception. Once you come to terms with that, it's not a big deal.
I have a cavalier I'm leveling solely to prove this point. He's currently 7. I believe he's brought his mount along and used it maybe 5-6 times. Has he ever been 'useless' as a result? By no means. He's still a full bab character in plate with challenge.
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There is the Liberator Prestige class, from the Second Darkness Player's Guide.
Also, for the record, Paladins outside of PFS are not required to be within one step of their deity's alignment. There is Golarion-lore that does limit Paladins a bit also (if the game is held strictly to Golarion lore). Other than that, any god is technically eligible.
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I am making a character for my first PFS game which will be at Gen Con. My buddy is playing a cleric of Cayden Cailean and I am considering playing a paladin to adventure as his "bodyguard." I would like to make my paladin dedicated to Cayden Cailean for consistency reasons.
Sorry, You can only have a deity within one step of your alignment. CG is two steps away from Lawful good. The absolute levels of debaucher...freedom in Cayden Cailean's worship are contradictory to the strict personal discipline that being a paladin requires.
For mounted characters, fitting a horse in many scenarios is very hard. YOu can get them inside (hosteling armor if you can't cast spells, scrolls of carry companion if you or your friends can cast it.
Your mount can take the narrow frame feat to more easily fit in places.
The problem is that once there, you want to charge with the horse. The charging rules are rough on large creatures, making it almost impossible to get a clear charge lane.
For a mounted character, being small with a medium mount makes it MUCH more doable. A halfling or Gnome on a riding dog with a lance can be a terror.
A raging drunk mad dog barbarian might make a good body guard for the preist (The dogs foaming at themouth!!!! No, he just likes lager) and they start with the critter at level 1.
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You're always going to run into times where certain class features are less than useful. The mount is no exception. Once you come to terms with that, it's not a big deal.
I have a cavalier I'm leveling solely to prove this point. He's currently 7. I believe he's brought his mount along and used it maybe 5-6 times. Has he ever been 'useless' as a result? By no means. He's still a full bab character in plate with challenge.
I really like the "tactician" elements to the cavalier. You could look at the mount as just a "nice bonus." But it seems like a lot of his cool features use the mount. These are mostly optional, I guess.
I really like the "tactician" elements to the cavalier. You could look at the mount as just a "nice bonus." But it seems like a lot of his cool features use the mount. These are mostly optional, I guess.You're always going to run into times where certain class features are less than useful. The mount is no exception. Once you come to terms with that, it's not a big deal.
I have a cavalier I'm leveling solely to prove this point. He's currently 7. I believe he's brought his mount along and used it maybe 5-6 times. Has he ever been 'useless' as a result? By no means. He's still a full bab character in plate with challenge.
Samurai is less mount centric and comes with a mount free archetype. Not a big fan of it myself, but its something you can look at.
I should add, 5-6 times out of 21 isn't a lot.
That was kind of my point.
Yes, within PFS you will have lots of times where you can't bring your mount.
No, it's not a big deal.
Unless you build yourself around your mount of course. I've seen that go wrong. 0 skill checks completed, 0 Damage done.
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10% of Cayden Cailean's devoted followers are Bards. They make a very good stand in for cleric of Cayden Cailean. They are not as combat focused as a paladin but they can follow the teaching of Cayden Cailean with out any problems. Along with having the same out look on life as the drunk god him self. Drinking, and fighting with friends is the best thing life has to offer. To me it's just a natural fit. I have played two bards both worshipers of Cayden Cailean. Not many people are dislike haven a bard at the table. As your role is to make them better.
The other option that I have looked at is playing a hunt master caviler. Then you have a Caviler with a Cailean Hound. Similar to Cayden Cailean him self.
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10% of Cayden Cailean's devoted followers are Bards. They make a very good stand in for cleric of Cayden Cailean. They are not as combat focused as a paladin but they can follow the teaching of Cayden Cailean with out any problems. Along with having the same out look on life as the drunk god him self. Drinking, and fighting with friends is the best thing life has to offer. To me it's just a natural fit. I have played two bards both worshipers of Cayden Cailean. Not many people are dislike haven a bard at the table. As your role is to make them better.
The other option that I have looked at is playing a hunt master caviler. Then you have a Caviler with a Cailean Hound. Similar to Cayden Cailean him self.
i was going to suggest huntmaster with a cay hound, sounds like a great flavor to me
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If you wanted to stick with a Paladin you might want to consider using the Empyreal Lord Arshea as your patron diety. The god is NG and shares many aspects of Cayden's portfolio.
And if you read the expanded entry in Chronicle of the Righteous, could lead to all sorts of....interesting.....roleplaying opportunities!
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If it were me, I would just go with another cleric of Cayden Cailean. In our home game, my brother-in-law and I are playing identical twin orphans, who are clerics of the Drunken Hero.
One of us plays more of the melee cleric (me), while the other is more a of buffing cleric (him). It really has worked out well! It can be said that there are never too many clerics in a party!
Remember, to boost your melee power, there are several good low level spells, such as Divine Favor, Magic Weapon, etc! Use these to really boost your power as a melee combatant. Bless is always good, and it never hurts to have the channels from two clerics available at all times!
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The problem is that once there, you want to charge with the horse. The charging rules are rough on large creatures, making it almost impossible to get a clear charge lane.
I believe a combat trained Dire Bat is a possible buy - of course it is not a class feature mount, but charge lanes are much easier 5 or 10 feet off the ground. GMs don't often try to tell you your Bat won't go underground.
However you could do the Ranger Archtype that can choose druid mounts and ride your animal companion - dire bat or roc - better give them Toughness because at medium most only have a Con of 9
I have seen small fighters on riding dogs (bought) do very well charging even in dungeons if their party is aware.
As for divine warriors - if you are not afraid of multi-classing - I have seen some fighter/cleric combinations that work well. Pick domains that have nice effects at low level. Cavalier/Clerics also work - For Caiden the Travel domain means your plate fighter still moves at 30.
Also look at inquisitions - not as good as domains - but if you figure you are always going to be taking spells from one domain - live longstrider from Travel - then some of the others can be useful.
Also on Cavaliers or any mount character - at low levels the mount is sometimes the best fighter in the party - make sure your handle animal is good enough and you don't have to ride them into battle.
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Thanks for the suggestions. It looks like the only two ways to have a front line combatant with a splash of divine influence would be Inquisitor or Order of the Star Cavalier. The other martial classes would have to be done with role playing (or maybe traits?)
I'll check out the Cad fighter -- thanks for that suggestion. And thanks everyone for the help. Maybe we'll see you at Gen Con?
Oracle of Battle with Cayden as his patron deity.
Someone just needs to type up a full list of Deities which can have Paladins and put it in the sticky. Since it's unlikely there are going to be even more Gods released, I wouldnt see the need to update this very often.
I thought there was a note about worshipping gods within one step of your alignment in your guide to PFS play?
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Someone just needs to type up a full list of Deities which can have Paladins and put it in the sticky. Since it's unlikely there are going to be even more Gods released, I wouldnt see the need to update this very often.I thought there was a note about worshipping gods within one step of your alignment in your guide to PFS play?
Yes. Here is the full and complete list of deities which can have paladins. If your deity of choice is not on this list, it does not have paladins:
-All LG deities
-All LN deities
-All NG deities
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List of available Gods for Paladin characters (Aroden while also in the alignment zone is kinda dead. Thus no Paladins)
Abadar
Alseta
Andoletta
Angradd
Apsu
Arshea
Bolka
Chaldira Zuzaristan
Dranngvit
Erastil
Folgrit
Grundinnar
Iomedae
Irori
Kols
Korada
Kurgess
Magrim
Ragathiel
Sarenrae
Shelyn
Torag
Trudd
Yuelral
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Danbala: Have you considered from the above list a Paladin of Kurgess? Hes a Demigod associated with Sport, Competition and Self Sacrifice (and hey Paladins are all about the latter :) )
His Clergy get along famously with both the churches of Desna and Cayden Cailean and are always welcome in both.
It would not be out of place at all for a Paladin of Kurgess to be escorting a Cleric of Cayden as they get on so well with each other.
I believe his Holy Weapon is a Javelin and is of Taldan origins (if that matters)
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List of available Gods for Paladin characters (Aroden while also in the alignment zone is kinda dead. Thus no Paladins)
You Forgot a few...
Imbrex LN – Sources: The Inner Sea World Guide (PC Alignment LN/N/LG)
Magdh LN – Sources: The Inner Sea World Guide (PC Alignment LN/N/LG)
Qi Zhong NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer, Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Shizuru LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer, Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Soralyon Angel NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Magnimar, City of Monuments (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Tsukiyo LG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dragon Empires Gazetteer, Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer (PC Alignment LG/NG/LN)
Ylimancha Agathion NG – Sources: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Magnimar, City of Monuments (PC Alignment NG/LG/CG/N)
Here is a list of all the PFS Available Gods, any that are LG/LN/NG are good for Paladins. That list may be updated soon with empyreal lords from Chronicle of the Righteous if Mike makes them legal for PFS.