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I came across an interesting question today and wondered if we could get a discussion going for a little insight.
Scenario:
A character has multiple attacks in a round.
This character possesses the feat Quick Draw.
This character also has more than one weapon.
The character is in combat with a creature. For the this scenario it will be round one of combat. The character begins the combat round unarmed and declares a Full Attack Action to use all of the attacks available. The first attack hits but the creature has damage resistance to the attack type.
1) Can this character use Quick Draw to then draw a weapon and finish the rest of the attacks with the desired weapon?
2) Can it be done using both one-handed and two-handed weapons?
3) Could it be done on a charge presuming the character had that capability?
4) Could it be done using one weapon at first and then another second? (Drops the ineffective weapon and draws the more effective one)
5) If the character is attacking initially unarmed, would the need for Quick Draw be bypassed with the presumption that the character is using knees/feet and holding the weapon at bay until required?
6) If the attacks are iterative or non-iterative how would that affect the interpretation?
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1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Charging and full attacks are usually exclusive. Pounce abilities tend to have their own specialized rules so you'd have to look at each case individually I'm afraid.
4) Yes.
5) No. If you don't have Quickdraw, you can't draw weapons in the middle of a full attack because that'd be bigger than a free action. However, if you were already holding the second weapon (in your other hand, for example), then it's possible.
6) I'm assuming iterative attacks here. What non-iterative attacks did you have in mind? Those tend to be natural weapons, in which case switching weapons isn't really applicable...
Basically, the reason this works is because you're just plain allowed to attack with different weapons during a full attack, and if you have quickdraw, you can actually draw them. Otherwise you'd need to have already drawn them (in a prior round).
It's even better: after the first attack you can still decide to call off your full attack; you don't have to commit to FA until you make the second to-hit roll.
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That sounds good. Thanks for the swifty reply.
Now I want to complicate the scenario a little...
Say the character is receiving extra attacks from an effect which provides natural attacks: Claw/Claw, specifically as additional attacks but not additional limbs.
For simplicity there will be only one attack provided by BAB turning the iteration into: BAB/Claw(-5)/Claw(-5).
If the type of natural attack is not specified can we still assume non-handed attacks such that a weapon is still being held?
Say the character is receiving extra attacks from an effect which provides natural attacks: Claw/Claw, specifically as additional attacks but not additional limbs.
For simplicity there will be only one attack provided by BAB turning the iteration into: BAB/Claw(-5)/Claw(-5).If the type of natural attack is not specified can we still assume non-handed attacks such that a weapon is still being held?
Unless otherwise specified, claw attacks occupy the limb/hand they're on. You don't get to attack with a claw if that claw is busy with a held weapon.
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@SlimGuage - Correct. If the description specifies that your hands become claws then anything held in those hands can either make a claw attack (dropping the weapon for instance) or a weapon attack following the usual rules for your combat style such as TWF. This is also my understanding.
If the descriptor does not state what limb they are on, however, is one part of this discussion. I am also curious what happens if a Monk, for instance, starts the round using Flurry of Blows and discovers the opponent is immune to Bludgeoning. Could the Monk switch to a non-Monk weapon and lose the extra attack for Flurry of Blows? Would it be different if the Monk was kicking and head-butting with the non-Monk weapon held in reserve?
And by designer-clarification, you also don't get to attack with a claw if you have already used that limb to attack with a weapon (even if that weapon is then dropped), and vice versa.
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@Errant: I think the RAI is that claws normally appear on the hands, unless specifically stated otherwise. Even on monsters, foot-claws are rare and mostly found on pounce/rake critters like velociraptors. If you've got a specific power in mind, maybe it's different, but in general, I'd say claws grow on the hands.
I don't think a monk can turn a flurry into a non-flurry midway. You've already applied the special flurry modifiers to hit and all that.
So while you can't shove the claws onto your feet, there's another way; move the regular attack onto your feet, leaving your claws free for natural attacks. This will require Improved Unarmed Strike (for kicking without nasty penalties) or some exotic boot-weapon. I'm sure someone's published boots-with-knives by now. That way you do get to increase your attacks.
Is it legal? Sure. Is it broken? Don't think so - weird boot weapons and claws tend to be on the low side of damage. Also, it's very important to remember that secondary natural weapons (your claws, if you use any melee weapon) use only half strength modifier to damage. So while you get more attacks, your damage won't be all that stellar.
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I'd like to look at it from one more angle to make sure we're all on the same page.
A character gains two additional natural weapon strikes on top of the single BAB attack. We'll stick with these attacks being claws that grow on the hands because I also feel that's as intended, but RAW it is not specified.
Could the character make those two attacks and then use Quick Draw to make the BAB attack with a weapon? Claw/Claw/BAB(-5) Otherwise the character would have to make the final strike unarmed.
No - if you've used a claw/hand to attack as a natural weapon, you cannot use it to make BAB attacks with a weapon.
You also can't add natural attacks to a flurry (but I think you know that).
FYI - unarmed strikes do not count as natural attacks for things like you describe with BAB/Boot(-5)/Boot(-5). Unarmed strikes use your normal BAB iterative attacks (flurry being the same + specialness).
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@Majuba - I think you misunderstood. If the character is allotted three attacks, even if the left hand is used for all of them, three attacks are still made.
The question is whether or not the final(original) attack must be made unarmed or can be made with a weapon using something like Quick Draw which allows a character to place a weapon in hand as a free-action.
@Errant I'm confused by what you're saying, unless Lincoln Hills has already answered it. A character isn't "alloted three attacks" by anything except iterative BAB. A character *can't* make iterative attacks with natural weapons. A character does not "gain two additional natural weapon strikes", they gain two natural weapons which can each be used once if the limb used is not used for iterative attacks.
Natural weapons are not working into iteration by applying -5.
If you use a natural weapon in the same round as a manufactured weapon, all natural weapons count as secondary attacks and receive a flat -5 modifier.
Assuming a 20th level fighter orc with toothy trait (primary bite attack) he has the following options.
Attack with the bite at full 20BAB+Str.
OR
Mixed attacks. Attack with both his weapon (Greatsword) at (+20/+15/+10/+5BAB)+STR and the 2 natural attacks (now secondary) get go to with a +15BAB+STR(they get -5 for being secondary).
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@Errant: no.
Natural weapons have nothing to do with iteratives. They don't use iterative attacks in any way whatsoever. Nor do they use TWF in any way.
Natural weapons are primary or secondary, based on the weapon. If you're using normal weapons as well, all your natural weapons become secondary. You can't penalize the normal weapon to keep the natural weapon primary.
The -5 to hit on secondary natural weapons may look like it's the same -5 on iterative attacks, but that's not the truth. Natural weapons use a different system to determine the (mostly, lack of) penalties for multiple attacks. Simply: multiple natural weapons have no penalties, except that all secondary natural weapons are at -5.
So if you start out with {claw+0, claw+0} and add a kick, it becomes {kick+0, claw-5, claw-5} because the kick makes the claws secondary weapons.
There does exist the Multiattack feat, which reduces the -5 to hit on secondary natural weapons to a -2. It's rare among monsters because most monsters have a lot of primary attacks (which don't need Multiattack), and don't use weapons (that would only turn their primary weapons into secondary weapons, for marginal gain).
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I'm sorry if my short response to Majuba gave the wrong impression. The -5 for being treated as secondary is exactly what I was talking about when I said worked into the iteration at a -5. TWF comes into play if you're using Unarmed Strikes with Natural Weapons. Your claws do the damage but you use your BAB to determine hits and if both hands have natural weapons you can use that in conjunction with TWF feats to make additional strikes. This has been my understanding at least.
Either way it's divergent from my original question. The answer at this point appears to be:
Strike with the manufactured weapon as primary, and then resolve the two Natural Weapon strikes as secondary until the effect which granted them ends.
Is that the general consensus? Most of the replies I have read seem to reinforce that concept.
Errant give a stat block example to be sure we are on the same page.
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Re-re-repeated:
A Character is granted two Natural Weapon Attacks through an effect that are in addition to the normal attacks gained through BAB. For the sake of simplicity the character only receives one attack a round from BAB. In order to take full advantage of available attacks the character resolves them in this order:
BAB/NWA(-5)/NWA(-5)
I was originally trying to clarify if some additional feat was needed to use a manufactured weapon in conjunction with the Natural Weapons or if all attacks must be made via Natural Weapons/Unarmed Strikes in order to gain full advantage.
Exceptions as I understand are as follows:
If the character's Natural Weapons are hands then it is not possible to make all Natural Weapon attacks and all BAB attacks in the same round. Using the situation above, if the character had a one-handed weapon equipped and the natural weapons were on the hands, then to use a manufactured weapon attack the character would lose one natural weapon attack and the sequence would be resolved in this order:
BAB/NWA(-5)
Should the character be wielding a two-handed weapon and the natural weapons were located on the hands, then the character would have to forego all natural weapon attacks to strike with the two-handed weapon.
Basically the limbs used to attack with a manufactured weapon can not use natural attacks in the same round the manufactured weapon is used in. I think you get the idea though.
You could have 2 claws and a bite as primary natural weapons. Manufactured weapon of armor spikes. With a BAB of 6 and Str 10 your attacks would look like one of these options:
- Full-attack. Armor spikes at +6/+1. Claw +1, Claw +1, Bite +1.
- Naturals only. Claw +6, Claw +6, Bite +6.
If you wanted to use a two-handed weapon instead like a greatsword, you could NEVER make the claw attacks. Because the limb was already used in the greatsword attack.
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@Wraithstrike - Alright. I'm glad we're agreed on the basic rules for how it is resolved. So, I want to follow up with a more ambiguous question. If an effect grants Natural Weapons but does not specify which limbs, these Natural Weapon attacks can be resolved as secondary attacks along with the iterative BAB attacks, correct? For instance, if the character sprouted spikes or some such.
Slams generally use arms so no swords, and so would claws. Basically any affect that uses a natural attack has some precedent already set. Now if the natural attack was a horn(just an example) then that horn attack would be make with a -5 penalty as a secondary natural attack and the interative BAB attacks would also be allowed.