RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Paizo has also ruled that <a Cleric> using a Light Shield can use the shield hand to make touch attacks as well as the casting tactic of switching weapon to shield hand, cast spell, switch weapon back to other hand.
James Jacobs commenting on what he thinks would be okay to allow is not the same as "Paizo has ruled that..."
Please be honest about your sources.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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In the Core book, Guantlet and Unarmed Strike, (which itself is considered a Light Simple Weapon) are listed under Simple Weapons, (not Simple Unarmed Strike Weapons).It's also my understanding that SKR's ruling on Brass Knuckles/Unarmed Strikes/etc. . . was officially overturned with the Ult Equipement coming out and NO including his opinion on the items. Being the most recent ruling, wouldn't Ult Equipment be correct, (unless I missed a more recent errata on it)?In Ultimate Equipment, all of the "worn" weapons (brass knuckles, cestus, gauntlet, spiked gauntlet) are listed as light melee weapons rather than under the "unarmed strikes" section of the table (where some of them appeared in other books).
On the other hand, the text for everything but the spiked gauntlet still references unarmed strikes. So, blech.
Incorrect. I just checked, and (at least in the most current version), the CRB weapon table's first sub-heading under Simple Weapons is "Unarmed Attacks" which includes weapon entries for "Gauntlet" and "Unarmed Strike".
If you're going to write lengthy extrapolations of developer intent that starts with what's in the book, you should probably start by checking what's in the book.
These statements are not correct. Gauntlets make you deal lethal damage, not count as armed. {Been running this wrong until quite recently myself}.
Incorrect. I just checked, and (at least in the most current version), the CRB weapon table's first sub-heading under Simple Weapons is "Unarmed Attacks" which includes weapon entries for "Gauntlet" and "Unarmed Strike".
If you're going to write lengthy extrapolations of developer intent that starts with what's in the book, you should probably start by checking what's in the book.
Ultimate Combat however does list only Unarmed strike as "Unarmed Attacks" and all others are listed under Light Melee Weapons.
Simple Weapons
Unarmed Attacks Price Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Weight Type Special
Unarmed strike — 1d2 1d3 ×2 — — B Nonlethal
Light Melee Weapons
Battle aspergillum 5 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 4 lbs. B See text
Brass knuckles 1 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 1 lb. B Monk, see text
Cestus 5 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/×2 — 1 lb. B or P Monk, see text
Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19–20/×2 10 ft. 1 lb. P or S —
Gauntlet 2 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — 1 lb. B —
Light mace 5 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 4 lbs. B —
Punching dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 ×3 — 1 lb. P —
Sickle 6 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 2 lbs. S Trip
Spiked gauntlet 5 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — 1 lb. P —
Wooden stake — 1d3 1d4 ×2 10 ft. 1 lb. P —
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It says Unarmed Attacks, NOT Unarmed Strikes as a category, which is what I said. I think you confused what I said with someone else mentioning that gauntlets as considered armed attacks.
What I actually said was that Unarmed Strikes are themselves considered Light One-Handed weapons,
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An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Looking at various worn weapons in Ultimate Equipment, they clearly aren't all treated as wielding a normal weapon. For instance:
These weapons fit snugly around the knuckles and allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a successful concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles. Brass knuckles can't be disarmed.
The cestus is a glove of leather or thick cloth that covers the wielder from mid-finger to mid-forearm. The close combat weapon is reinforced with metal plates over the fingers and often lined with wicked spikes along the backs of the hands and wrists. While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal lethal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, you can have your unarmed strikes deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus. When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks). A cestus can't be disarmed.
So brass knuckles specifically say that they modify unarmed strikes to make them lethal, and don't say that you're considered armed. Cestus specifically says you're considered armed, but again references unarmed strikes doing lethal damage.
So was the "all worn weapons are treated as weapons, not modifications to unarmed strikes" ruling more recent than the publication of UE? Because it seems that UE matches the original wording from the Core Rulebook in ignoring that ruling, even on gauntlets:
This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplates) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Here's another wrinkle to the conversation. A cestus doesn't cover the fingertips. Could a cestus wearer cast a melee touch spell and hold the charge in their fingertips only? Thus, when making an AoO while holding their charge, they'd have to decide if they're attacking with spell in their fingertips or the cestus, since they're considered armed with both on the same hand.
I actually didn't now about the cestus when I started this thread, but it looks better than the spiked gauntlet, and I might use that as my loophole to avoid these debates so I can do what I want with this PC (cast melee touch spells with one hand, wear a heavy shield, and also threaten adjacent enemies even when I'm not holding a charge).
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Artanthos: If I recall, Spellstrike was specifically clarified to not discharge a held-charge into a weapon, and particularly even when dropped and picked up. I do not believe it called this out as exceptions, particularly not in the case of discharging into an *already-held* weapon.
If the normal condition was not "discharge into weapon", there would be no need for clarification that spellstrike behaved differently.
The problems come, from if they only modify unarmed strikes, then can monks use a brass knuckle to get an enhancement bonus on their unarmed strikes while ALSO getting to use an amulet of mighty fists to get special enhancements.
If you think brass knuckles/gauntlet/cestus only modify the unarmed strike, then a monk could get a +5 cestus with brilliant energy and flaming on it (total +10 bonus). AND Wear a AoMF with another +5 worth of enhancement on it ex(Speed, and Ki Intensifying). This would give their unarmed strike a total of +15 enhancements on unarmed strike, because you ruled cestus modifies the unarmed strike, instead of replaces it.
Maybe you want that in your game. I think RAI is that no weapon can ever have more than +10 enhancement on it.
Either a cestus is a weapon, and therefore don't allow you to deliver touch spells through them, or it is an unarmed strike, and characters using IUS can get an effective +15 to their unarmed strike attacks.
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The problems come, from if they only modify unarmed strikes, then can monks use a brass knuckle to get an enhancement bonus on their unarmed strikes while ALSO getting to use an amulet of mighty fists to get special enhancements.
If you think brass knuckles/gauntlet/cestus only modify the unarmed strike, then a monk could get a +5 cestus with brilliant energy and flaming on it (total +10 bonus). AND Wear a AoMF with another +5 worth of enhancement on it ex(Speed, and Ki Intensifying). This would give their unarmed strike a total of +15 enhancements on unarmed strike, because you ruled cestus modifies the unarmed strike, instead of replaces it.
Maybe you want that in your game. I think RAI is that no weapon can ever have more than +10 enhancement on it.
Either a cestus is a weapon, and therefore don't allow you to deliver touch spells through them, or it is an unarmed strike, and characters using IUS can get an effective +15 to their unarmed strike attacks.
Or non-numeric enhancement bonuses can be treated the same way as numeric enhancement bonuses when it comes to stacking. Thus, an unarmed strike couldn't be enhanced by more than one item at the same time. But that would require a ruling from Paizo which doesn't currently exist, so it's only speculative (or a house rule), and doesn't really affect our current RAW conversation. Just a thought, though.
Ok, great. So the "glove-like" weapons don't discharge touched spells.
Can you deliver a touch-spell through a glove-like weapon and do weapon damage by making an attack against normal AC?
Or
Can you only deliver touch-spells with unarmed/natural weapon attacks against normal AC?
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnr
Touch Spells: Does wearing a gauntlet, cestus, or similar glove-like weapon count as "touching anything" for the purpose of accidentally discharging a held touch spell?
No.
Thank you for the quick response to this thread. Of course, there are other details still being debated in this thread that could also use clarification, but I think this is good enough for the purposes of the character I'm creating.
When they're done with the current threads, they're going to take up knitting.
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Ok, great. So the "glove-like" weapons don't discharge touched spells.
Can you deliver a touch-spell through a glove-like weapon and do weapon damage by making an attack against normal AC?
Or
Can you only deliver touch-spells with unarmed/natural weapon attacks against normal AC?
Given that wearing a gauntlet-like weapon will not accidentally discharge a held touch spell
AND
Given that touch spells may be made by a hand wearing a gauntlet
AND
Given that touching someone with the hand holding the charge will discharge that spell whether you like it or not
THEN
Making a normal weapon attack with a spiked gauntlet that is currently holding the charge will also discharge the held touch spell (if the attack hits) whether you like it or not.