Is there a solid rule on what NPC attitudes mean? There was a short discussion about it in my session zero where I said that in my interpretation of how the Diplomacy and Intimidate skills worked was that it would actually bad to make a vampire or a kyton 'Friendly' because in the cases of those two monsters, the vampire would probably want to turn you into a spawn and the kyton will probably torture you until you feel bliss, because in context I think that's what those creatures would do to make friends. This is how I learned it as I started playing and how I interpret that creatures won't act against their nature or duties (assuming they care about said duties).
One of my players said that 'Helpful' means that they do not wish to harm you. My problem with that is that this would mean that at 10th level any character dedicated to diplomacy would make almost any indifferent thing s/he can spend time talking to will be a little too helpful almost without fail.
Being friendly or helpful means they are nice to you. Monsters know what bad affects are, and kytons know people don't like to be tortured. They know they like it, but they also would understood that forcing someone into being tortured is not an act of friendship. Neither is turning someone into a vampire unless the person asked for it.
Also diplomacy is not mind control. Just because someone is your friend that does not mean they will do everything you say. It does mean they will most likely help you if it does not harm them, or it the risk is not too great.
Remember that changing an NPC's attitude via diplomacy takes at least 1 minute. During that 1 minute of time, they will be trying to kill your diplomatic booty, and if you start swinging against them I'd say your diplomacy fails.
In 3.5 the chart gave a little more information as to what each attitude meant.
@wraithstrike, Well a Kyton is described much like a cenobite from Hellraiser. Technically if it wants to be your friend it wants to torture you believing that through the threshold of suffering is where you will find the wondrous pleasures of pain. They know you don't like it but the alternative is to let you be victim to the fear of it and an existence devoid of the paradise that they could offer you, and living your life as a poor pitiful creature full of fear of sensation and deprived of the sweet nectar of tears. Well from a kyton's point of view.
@wraithstrike, Well a Kyton is described much like a cenobite from Hellraiser. Technically if it wants to be your friend it wants to torture you believing that through the threshold of suffering is where you will find the wondrous pleasures of pain. They know you don't like it but the alternative is to let you be victim to the fear of it and an existence devoid of the paradise that they could offer you, and living your life as a poor pitiful creature full of fear of sensation and deprived of the sweet nectar of tears. Well from a kyton's point of view.
No, that not how it works. They won't harm you if they like you more. That is your reading of their attitude. The diplomacy skill exist to see if you can get the NPC to help you with a task.
To give another example the Whispering Way wants to turn everyone into undead creatures. That does not mean a sucessful diplomacy check against them will try mean they will try to forcefully turn you into a zombie.
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem....
If a creature’s attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature’s current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers. Once a creature’s attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril.
After all of that, there is a chart showing you what it will or will not help you with.
|
Also, its important to keep in mind Pathfinder built in a sanity rule to diplomacy. So personality overwhelms on issues that are important.
To cite: "the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
So you might get the vampire to helpful, or friendly, but he might still be like 'Count Von Count still declares that all must serve him, you and I will have many a discussion about free will once you have joined my family, my friend. Blah!' But you might get him to fight fair, or 'no flying,' or 'face me like a man,' or whatever.
Diplomacy is no longer a magic dice roll to make people cheat on their spouses with you, abandon their held beliefs, die in ruthless pointless fights or the like, and thankfully the rules actually /state/ that now.
The 'friends want friends to be vampires' thing is more of a function of charm person then diplomacy, and many, many threads have been on this forum discussing interpretations of what 'treats you like a trusted friend and ally' actually entails.
Some thread necromancy for what I feel is an important aspect of the Influence rules not being considered. In a RPG, the player and their character are meant to be different entities. Part of FRPGs is the opportunity to perform a game role beyond what one’s own characteristics allow.
Practically no one has a Strength of 24, but plenty of Fighters have Belts of Whatever that can give them such a Strength; we don’t expect the player to lift a heavy object to “role-play” lifting the portcullis. We expect the player to say “my fighter moves up to the portcullis and tries to lift it out of the way”. And then the rules abstraction for Strength kick in.
The rules for Influence checks—diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, and sense motive—are a means of abstracting game tasks no different than lifting a portcullis. There are a great many ways of using Influence, and apart from the highly simplistic idea of smooth-talking, most of them are as inappropriate to the game table as feats of strength or lock-tampering.
The rules, and the mechanics of dice-rolling, allow players to play a character capable of doing things they are not. So the not-very-well-spoken ex-Army Sergeant gets to play the Bard, and a Bard is great at Influence. Asking the NVWSEAS to describe their intent, and maybe eliciting an idea of how they mean to accomplish their intent, is fine, but the dice rolls exist to allow the NVWSEAS to play a successful Bard, and to have the experienced politician’s gullible Wizard be convinced.
The v1 rules make it plain to the GM what the players should generally expect. But they nowhere expound the idea that Influence is a variant form of Charm Person, except in the case of the “long con” mentioned in another comment. Plenty of guards let unauthorised persons into secure areas. Greed, lust, sloth, rage, and pride, all factor in. Plenty of very intelligent and plenty of very wise people have been swayed, for good and I’ll; and plenty have been played, usually to their loss.
Men really do sell their country’s secrets for an desirable woman’s attentions, or money, or flattery, or a sense of entitlement. It is for the GM to balance the players’ Influence goals and methods against the backstory of the NPC and the framework provided by the rules.
The rules—as distinct from examples in the rules—don’t force the GM into specific reactions, they inform general attitudes. We all know a helpful person when we interact with one. A great waitstaff don’t give you the day’s receipts, but they do make you feel good about dinner, and maybe give you a tip for a movie, a show, or a horse race.
A hostile customer doesn’t kill the store’s employees, but they do make everyone miserable and usually wind up costing the store money.
There are degrees of hostile and helpful, and as another comment noted, all attitudes are ultimately subject to the personality of the character. Very few persons will risk bodily harm merely because they have a favorable impression of a stranger. That kind of “help” requires more investment. By the same token, very people just up and kill a stranger they don’t like.
Lastly, the other role rules and dice play is to restrain the artificial in a FRPG—what some call metagaming.