For many factors, it's clear to see when levels in Master Chemist will stack with existing levels in Alchemist;
Bomb damage... Check
Extracts CL... Check
Duration of mutagenic form... Check
But some things seem a little in the gray:
For example, take Dispelling Bombs, an alchemist discovery. Would those take both Alchemist levels and Master Chymist levels together, to determine the CL of the Dispel effect?
How about Spontaneous Healing & Healing Touch?
The one phrase that gives me hope, can be taken from the description of the Master Chymist's 'mutate' ability:
In this form, she gains all the bonuses and penalties of her mutagen and adds together her alchemist and master chymist levels together to determine her effective alchemist level for the duration of this form.
This, interpreted one way, can make it seem like Not only are the alchemist and Master Chymist levels added together to determine the duration of the mutagenic form; FOR THE DURATION of that form, Effective Alchemist level = Alchmist levels + Master Chymist.
In other words, an Alch 8/ MC 7 could use things like Spontaneous healing as a level 15 alchemist...
The Extracts Per Day quote, which claims, as per usual, "She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for extracts per day and an increased effective caster level for extracts." may obviously be brought into question. However, one may argue that since there is a particular, Specific time where effective alchemist level is equal to Alch + MC levels, there is no conflict, that trumps the general statement.
What say you? What say the officials? Has this question been asked before?
Edited: Extracts per day --> Extract CL, at the very beginning of post.
Alright... Looking into it, the best that I can personally answer is as follows:
- The Beastmorph's "Beastmorph Form" only applies to Mutagens that the alchemist creates. Any benefits chosen from the beast shape and alter self spells must be chosen When the alchemist prepares a mutagen.
- The Master Chymist adds a "mutagenic Form", which takes all the benefits and penalties from using a mutagen. An alchemist is forced into this form when using mutate Or when imbibing a mutagen.
I'm going to read it as follows: The benefits gained from Beastmorph do not count as "Bonuses" or "Penalties", and only apply when the alchemist prepares a mutagen.
The above two don't conflict;
First off, the Beastmorph form ONLY applies when the alchemist is using a mutagen, Not when mutating. Hence, it actually becomes beneficial to have "Infuse Mutagen" available. The alchemist sadly does not gain the ability to change into different animalistic or monstrous forms at will, with Mutate.
Second off, the description for "mutagenic form" only implies there *May* be changes in physical appearance, and nothing seems to suggest that it's not capable of taking on the animalistic or monstrous features granted by the Beastmorph form (but only when a mutagen is used ). The only thing actually forced by the mutagenic form is the change in alignment and new personality.
...That's the best that I can see.
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With regards to Dispelling Bombs and Healing Touch... I would have to say they do not stack.
The Master Chymist does not gain discoveries, thus there is no logical reason why the Alchemist discoveries continue to gain strength when he is taking a class (even a prestige one) that does not add additional discoveries.
Basically the Master Chymist focuses on bonuses and upgrades to the Mutate/Mutagen and sacrifices 2 lvls of extracts and all lvls of discoveries.
Just my 2 cents on it.
Which makes logical sense...
And Which would sadly limit an Alchemist's discovery options to those with more utility independent of level, or primarily damage-focused... Or else risk having their general usefulness have diminishing returns...
damn.
Would have been nice to have 100 HP Spontaneous Healing, and CL 20 Dispel Bombs, on a mutagenic giant.
Alright... Looking into it, the best that I can personally answer is as follows:
- The Beastmorph's "Beastmorph Form" only applies to Mutagens that the alchemist creates. Any benefits chosen from the beast shape and alter self spells must be chosen When the alchemist prepares a mutagen.
- The Master Chymist adds a "mutagenic Form", which takes all the benefits and penalties from using a mutagen. An alchemist is forced into this form when using mutate Or when imbibing a mutagen.I'm going to read it as follows: The benefits gained from Beastmorph do not count as "Bonuses" or "Penalties", and only apply when the alchemist prepares a mutagen.
The above two don't conflict;
First off, the Beastmorph form ONLY applies when the alchemist is using a mutagen, Not when mutating. Hence, it actually becomes beneficial to have "Infuse Mutagen" available. The alchemist sadly does not gain the ability to change into different animalistic or monstrous forms at will, with Mutate.
Second off, the description for "mutagenic form" only implies there *May* be changes in physical appearance, and nothing seems to suggest that it's not capable of taking on the animalistic or monstrous features granted by the Beastmorph form (but only when a mutagen is used ). The only thing actually forced by the mutagenic form is the change in alignment and new personality.
...That's the best that I can see.
I disagree and here is why.
Firstly, as I understand it, once you take a lv in master chymist, there becomes no difference between a mutagen or mutate (except for duration). When using either of the two, you will enter your mutagenic form.
Secondly, if the abilities you gain from a beastform mutagen only apply when drinking your mutagen and not mutating, then wouldn't the same apply to the claws/bite gained from feral mutagen as well? Since both say you gain their effects when you drink your mutagen.
But if you don't gain the effects of feral mutagen when you mutate, why is it one of the requirements (well it's feral or infuse mutagen) for the prestige class? Why can you take feral mutagen as an advance mutagen (a master chymist discovery) if you don't gain it's effects from the prestige class's main feature (mutating/mutagenic form)?
Lastly, that bit about there may be changes in the appearance of your mutagenic form, to me it sounds like there can be changes in your mutagenic appearance but only if you choose for there to be changes. Alternatively, if you choose to, both your normal and mutagenic appearances could look the same.
I disagree and here is why.Firstly, as I understand it, once you take a lv in master chymist, there becomes no difference between a mutagen or mutate (except for duration). When using either of the two, you will enter your mutagenic form.
Secondly, if the abilities you gain from a beastform mutagen only apply when drinking your mutagen and not mutating, then wouldn't the same apply to the claws/bite gained from feral mutagen as well? Since both say you gain their effects when you drink your mutagen.
But if you don't gain the effects of feral mutagen when you mutate, why is it one of the requirements (well it's feral or infuse mutagen) for the prestige class? Why can you take feral mutagen as an advance mutagen (a master chymist discovery) if you don't gain it's effects from the prestige class's main feature (mutating/mutagenic form)?
Lastly, that bit about there may be changes in the appearance of your mutagenic form, to me it sounds like there can be changes in your mutagenic appearance but only if you choose for there to be changes. Alternatively, if you choose to, both your normal and mutagenic appearances could look the same..
Aye, I agree with the last bit, and it's actually what I was trying to communicate. Apologies if the wording was a bit off.
...But what you say about the 'feral mutagen' discovery is a mind boggler, and you are entirely correct.
I'm still a little skeptical about withdrawing anything I said against Beastform. After all, the implication is that a single level in Master Chymist would allow a beastform alchemist to adapt twice a day to virtually any hardship present. A lot of the balance regarding the Beastmorph alchemist is that they need to plan in advance, or have multiple infused mutagens for just the right scenario.
To put into perspective, Imagine an Alch 14 / Master Chymist 1 being able, At Will, to transform into a monstrous creature with Pounce, and Rake. In the next six seconds, again without preparations, they decide to flee. In an instant, they have burrow 30ft, or fly 90ft, or whatever is applicable to them in that particular scenario.
An ordinary beastmorph alchemist would need to pay thousands in gold to have this in advance, lots pre-planning, anticipation, and would more than possibly Still be caught off guard.
I'm unsure a single level in a prestige class is supposed to grant that kind of freedom...
Regardless, you are, again, entirely correct and it would not make logical sense to have the 'Feral Mutagen' discovery not account for the mutagenic form.
..The way I see it, By the wording present, either the mutagenic form includes All possible benefits that apply to an alchemist's mutagen ( rage and beastform included ), or it Rejects them as well as feral mutagen. (making Beastform entirely incompatible, since mutagenic form is Forced upon an alchemist upon imbibing a mutagen, and the feral mutagen Advanced Mutagen wouldn't even work )
I don't think the second option is remotely a viable interpretation. That pretty much settles it.
The only other way, though, would be to have some sort of official ruling that makes some sort of differentiation, or live with the fact a single level in a prestige class can grant That much benefit.
I want to be snarky, but don't want it to be personal. I'm making a point, but it doesn't have to do with you.So you are saying that if they are almost as good at something as part of a druid, that is too good?
Anyway I'm sorry for derailing this thread. I was just hoping someone could answer that for me. Now I'm less sure than I was.
I would say that it still not only takes time for a druid to learn wild shape, the druid's flavor is still something significantly different. Wrong thread to argue the druid's balance =P
... This is a single level in a prestige class making the main aspect of an alchemist archetype suddenly threefold better.
Also, my question was answered with a more-than-feasible logical statement. So I'm satisfied =P
...I'll still mourn the possibility of having an Incredible Hulk launching CL 20 Dispelling bombs.
Master chymist doesn't increase your alchemist level for alchemist discoveries. But if you look at the master chymist's Advanced Mutagens like Greater Mutagen or Furious Mutagen it has this line, "an effective alchemist level (alchemist level plus chymist level) of at least 12" So they stack for level requirements of advanced mutagens but not discoveries.