Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, it will be interesting to see if Players can train other Players, or if that will only be a function available within a Settlement itself.
Sort of a Mentor/Student relationship? Higher level Players can help 'train' lower level Players?
(Originally from this thread.)
I loved this idea and decided it needed it's own thread. I'll chip in my own two cents on the topic in a little bit, once I've thought on it more.
In the mean time, please share your ideas and opinions on implementing a mechanic like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After reading Goblinworks Blog: An Echo and a Stranger's Hand I got to thinking about how this could play out. Learning a new skill or attack, or getting a new piece of equipment is one thing, being able to use it effectively is something else completely. Just because you can now swing that sword with magnificent ferocity it doesn't mean that you are going to emerge victorious any more frequently.
The metagame of combat, player skill, knowledge, and tactics, are going to prove to be as, or probably more important than the actual maneuvers, and these are things that the game either can't, or won't, teach. Apprenticeships and mentoring programs have been around for thousands of years, a testament to their effectiveness, and these player support structures should be utilized to help players hone and develop their capabilities. Learning from someone invariably means that you will perform an activity in more or less the same manner as the one who taught you, though it doesn't preclude you from improving on it yourself. It also means that there could very well be a constant point/counterpoint between various groups, or even between various masters.
To facilitate this and other aspects of the game, the primary tool we need would be an in-game messageboard/bulletin board. Word of mouth is great, and we have a message board for the game, but we all know that a small percentage of the population reads it. A mentoring system is one of the absolute best new player experiences the game could have.
As for players teaching other players mechanically, actually granting them 'levels' or 'ranks' in a skill, or new 'abilities' or 'powers', I think it would be a fantastic mechanic, so long as the teacher has some kind of teaching credentials to be able to teach, and they can't train to a level greater than they possess, or train an ability they themselves lack.
I'll have to ponder this more and expand on this later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This would be a really interesting idea and could lead to some awesome Rp. If GW could put a system in place where PC's could teach and pass on knowledge in game to other PC's similar to the way we gain skills from npcs. It would have to be a system just like NPC's with similar requirements and maybe even some sort of required cost. Especially later after launch when we get some new people into the game and have a "older" pc takes them in and teaches them the way lol.
I definitely think this needs to be monitored and controlled or it could get out of hand. That being said, I think that using the same requirements and costs of going to a NPC would help. This could be vital to certain classes also then normally train this way, like sorcerer and druid. I think this would also assist bandits who don't typically have access to settlements due to alignment/rep issues. though the "trainer" would still need a place to level his skills, so he can teach the others.
maybe another limit we can put on this would be a limit to the training (meaning like can only teach up to within 2 levels of your own skills. so level 5 fighter skill can train up to level 3 fighter skill) and also maybe a longer training CD or limit the "class size" (can only train 2 at a time, where NPC can train 5) Just some ideas to get discussed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a really interesting idea, and it could work well. Maybe having it be its own "training". Don't have it too far down the list, but maybe have a req. of "Requires the "Training skill" and at least 5th level in skill being taught" and like Milo said, only being able to train 2 levels below your own. Each level of "training" you have lets you take on an extra pupil (allowing people who really want to each others advance with it like any other activity in PFO). Also make part of the training process actually doing the activity together. So if your training "Herbalism" you have gather X amount of herbs while in the same party, and maybe even within X distance. Or if your doing Blacksmithing, you need to create X amount of items while at the same forge, or kill X amount of creatures to gain better sword skill or fighter skill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We seem to be mixing character training and player training in this thread.
In terms of character training, I hope there is a mechanism, but I suspect that it might not be part of the "minimally functional" game at EE.
As far as player training, I think EVE University provides an excellent model for guiding a brand new player through a very complex game. Some people find it too regimented and formal, but I learned things in E Uni classes that would have taken me months to discover by trial and error. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that a couple of charter companies have already expressed interest in training new PFO players, starting at OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We seem to be mixing character training and player training in this thread.
In terms of character training, I hope there is a mechanism, but I suspect that it might not be part of the "minimally functional" game at EE.
Assume for pretty much everything I say ever that I'm talking about things I'd like to see for the final official release of the game, not early enrollment (which is mostly just glorified pre-alpha/alpha/beta testing).
Also, for this thread the intention was to talking about character training.
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Regarding player training though; I think it is way too heavy handed now days. I don't want to run through a tutorial every time I start a new game/character. I prefer to learn through trial and error.
...but I learned things in E Uni classes that would have taken me months to discover by trial and error.
True, learning on your own can take a lot of time. That seems fitting though with the time-based skill training. Regardless, this is an MMO, if you don't know how to do something, or need help understanding some functionality, you can simply ask someone.
This is also the information age and if you're playing an MMO you probably have an internet connection. The internet is full of walkthroughs and guides.Finally, you can always check the (often overlooked now days) game manual. Assuming it comes with one. (It better.)
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Anyhow, back to character mentor training.
I would like a system where a more experienced character can officially take on a student/apprentice character via contract or the like. The benefits seem obvious, a mentored character would train up skills faster then un-mentored. Furthermore they could learn abilities and such from their mentor instead of having to go into town, allowing them to power up on the go if their mentor is with them.
The benefits for the mentor are a little harder to nail down. They could maybe include regularly paid fees in the mentor/student contract, or a % of the students earnings. They could also maybe train up their own skills a bit faster. Thus the fastest way to advance a character would be to mentor a student while being a student to another mentor yourself.
Mentors should probably also be able to take on more then one student. The game may be level-less, but an ECL can probably still be calculated. The number of student possible could then be some fraction of the ECL.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting idea. Wizards could take on apprentices, Clerics could train acolytes, Paladins could take on squires, etc... However, how would this work with the existing proposed training facilities and daily XP gain?
Gloreindl wouldn't mind having an apprentice or two, just not sure how it'd work. If it can be introduced, it'd be a good community builder and RP tool as well as a way to boost Rep and add to the ways a PC can train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, this would give me an actual reason to socialize and interact with other players. I usually end up soloing in MMOs...
I'm afraid I'm not really familiar with the current proposed training facilities. Regarding the XP gain though, since development is mostly time-based, from my understanding, becoming a student would simply increase the rate you gain XP. A +15% boost or so, maybe stacked with a +1-2% per ECL difference. +15% is a small boost, but with it supposed to take several years to master a role it should be rather significant in the long run. The bonus per ECL difference will allow new characters to power up faster as the game progresses and will put high ECL characters in high demand as mentors. Allowing them to charge higher rates.
For mentors the XP gain bonus would be lower, something like +5% for being a mentor and +1-2% per student. Being already powerful, their main benefit would be income and renown. To that end, mentoring could also improve reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Vancent, XP is accrued at a steady rate, but must still be spent at a trainer to actually aquire new skills. Currently, the only thing we've heard about regarding trainers from the Devs was about NPC trainers, which have a fixed number of training slots per time. Allowing PC trainers would permit players to step in to dedicate time to fill any demand left unmet by the training facility. Presumably PCs would also have some similar limitation, such that you may only train X number of other people per unit of time (ex. allow others to train 1 skill every ten hours).
Letting players increase other players' XP gain rate would be a mistake, in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In order to acquire new abilities, players must first buy the Skill for their character at a Training Facility, and then complete zero or more in-game Achievements. My personal hope is that "find and train with a master/mentor" can be one of those in-game Achievements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's assume that the 'kits' that have been bandied around can be made by players, or more likely, specific settlements or PC Settlements that reach a certain level.
Let's say there's a Smithing Kit. Player a purchases it, levels up their smithing using the Kit, and eventually it expires.
Now they can go back to a Settlement and train there ... or they can buy another Kit and train at home.
A Settlement sounds safer, but it's far more expensive and you have to deal with the Controlling Faction of that Settlement/Hex, whom you might have issues with, or they charge a hefty tax for the 'right' to use 'their' trainers.
The second option is that a suitably skilled player might use the kit, grab a lower-skilled player, and the two toggle their 'Mentor' function.
Players then sit back and watch as their characters activate the kit, hopefully near a facility appropriate to the Skill in question to be trained, and the 'Senior' player grants the 'Junior' player a bonus to the training, utilizing their own experiences to help out.
In this way, we can start to get players who joined later in the game up to competitive speed, and help promote the faster growth of Settlements, an act that might be extremely useful in a Hex that is being settled with a Monster-based Escalation brewing on their borders, or just in case players want to become competitive to the 'Old Boys' of the game.
I'd prefer to see this method as it would allow Chapters/Guilds/Companies being able to bring their constituent members up to a certain level of 'competency' faster, but at the same point, in doing this, the higher-skilled players are locked down for the Mentoring Process, meaning that while they're helping 'junior' players get a leg over that wall, their own skills aren't increasing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting. I'm unsure whether GW would buy into it if it in anyway impacts their income, but I think there are ways it could work in their favor.
If training is purchased with starmetal and starmetal is sold, then it seems like increasing training rates should increase GW's rate of starmetal sales.
If that holds true, then if mentoring reduces the amount of XP-time it takes to reach a trainable level then it should benefit all parties.
Does anyone see a flaw? I for now do not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xp accrual is steady and bought with RL cash or its in-game equivalent (starmetal, etc). So basically training is only a matter of spending that xp at a trainer and paying a cost in either time and/or resources (cash or items).
Mentoring should have an in-game benefit to make it attractive for players to utilise, else people will just use the NPC trainers (barring fringe cases where its more difficult to find an NPC trainer).
Taking into account the earlier comments, I would propose the system works as follows:
Player A (the 'Mentor') must learn a skill, or series of skills, to take an apprentice. Lets call the skill 'Teaching', with successive skills being 'Advanced Teaching' and 'Master Teaching'. Each new level of teaching requires that you reach maximum level in the one(s) before. Each teaching skill allows a certain set or tier of skills to be taught, but at no higher than the current level of the Teaching skill (e.g. cannot teach Basic Mining 4 if you only have Teaching 3). The Mentor must also have the skill at the required level to be taught(i.e. If you want to teach Short Sword 3, you must have Short Sword at 3 or higher). This in effect would allow someone with a maxed skill to pass that skill on to others, assuming they also met the Teaching skill requirements.
Assuming we have three levels of teaching skills (as above) I would propose that a Mentor can only have one Apprentice for each tier of Teaching unlocked (1 at Teaching 1, 2 at Advanced Teaching 1 and 3 at Master Teaching 1). This is to avoid having huge 'classes' of apprentices and diluting the Mentor-Apprentice model.
Mentor training should be faster and/or cheaper than NPC training (as the Mentor has already provided an investment in training the required Teaching skills and is limited in the number of Apprentice's he/she may train). The 'money-sink' would be in the form of items that are consumed upon starting the training (e.g. blank parchment, weapon oil, training sword, etc). These materials should be craftable by appropriately skilled players. If training a skill takes a matter of minutes, then the Mentor and Apprentice need to remain together for the entire period. One leaving the vicinity of the other would pause the training. If training a skill takes many hours then I would propose that the Mentor and Apprentice need to meet periodically to continue the Apprentice's education.
Mentoring an Apprentice should generate reputation for the Mentor.
Hope thats a fairly lucid read :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oberyn Corvus's suggestion seems pretty good. I support it.
I can see I had previously fundamentally misunderstood how XP and skills and such works. I thought it was only inspired by EVE Online, but mostly it's own thing, then filled in blanks on my own. I think I've got a handle on it now though, it's almost exactly like EVE Online...which makes me sad.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oberyn Corvus's suggestion seems pretty good. I support it.
I can see I had previously fundamentally misunderstood how XP and skills and such works. I thought it was only inspired by EVE Online, but mostly it's own thing, then filled in blanks on my own. I think I've got a handle on it now though, it's almost exactly like EVE Online...which makes me sad.
The big difference is that you never lose XP for not having a skill set to train. Which pretty much solves my biggest complaint about EVE's system. Though the time=XP equation makes me extremely wary of giving players anything that lets them alter the rate at which XP is gained or spent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know, I don't really like the entirely controlled and time constrained advancement. I think people should be rewarded for hard work and dedication with faster progression. Helping each other to advance should also be encouraged and rewarded.
Advancement should not be determined by how much real money you spend in the store.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love Time based progression, It is the most freeing thing in an MMO. When your a merchant or crafter, you can focus on roleplayeing your character passively progresses in your economic endeavors while you play how you want to play while having fun. Vs being forced to take a break from playing the game you want to play to go do quests, grind goblins and orcs. That grinding progression is what fundamentally makes theme-park games anti-RP to RP in those games you NEED to go out of your way and pretend and imagine. VS a sandbox game which allows you to play the role which makes RP come naturally and is not forced because the RP part IS the game thats what your doing. Time based progression frees you up to play anyway you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is great for merchant type characters, and frees up RPing time. I don't think it's a good thing overall though.
With fixed character progression, that leaves accruing wealth and factional power as the main reward for actually playing the game, just like EVE Online. That's great and all in EVE Online, but this is supposed to be Pathfinder Online. I want a Fantasy Adventure RPG, not a Corporate Economy Simulator! I want a Pathfinder MMO!
*Storms around flailing in frustration.*