RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've been reviewing the PFS rules on upgrading arcane bonded items for a character of mine, and I've run into some things that don't quite sound right, such that I'm wondering whether these are really the intent for PFS.
For reference, here's the FAQ on how bonded items work in PFS: LINK
Here's the first issue:
No skill check needed - The FAQ never speaks as though the PC is actually crafting the item; rather, it sounds like you just get a discount. Given that gunslinger ammo works the same way, this very well may be the intent, but I wanted to check. After all, the only reason my Arcane Duelist bard has ranks in Spellcraft is because he gets the arcane bond class feature eventually, so if he's not actually crafting, I just wasted some skill ranks. :/
Second issue:
No bypassing requirements - The normal item crafting rules in the CRB let you bypass most crafting requirements by adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC (and the DC starts so low that skipping 1 requirement is trivial). But if PFS characters aren't actually crafting, then (and this is how the FAQ is phrased as well) they MUST meet ALL the prereqs.
On some items one would hardly notice the difference, but if this is the intent then I accidentally made an illegal bonded item upgrade a few levels back with my Eldritch Knight when I skipped the requirement of having the mnemonic enhancer spell by adding 5 to the Spellcraft DC. Similarly, my Arcane Duelist (whose bond must be a weapon) won't be able to make his rapier agile until 10th level (for weapons, the CL is a requirement), and can NEVER make it keen (due to not being able to learn keen edge).
For weapons in particular, there are LOTS of abilities which are within the budget of a PFS character, but could never be discounted via arcane bond within a PFS career, due to requiring a CL of 12+ and not being able to bypass that requirement.
Is that the intent for PFS (i.e. not requiring Spellcraft but disallowing the bypassing of other prereqs)? Or is this supposed to work like ordinary crafting (i.e. requiring Spellcraft but allowing the bypassing of a limited number of prereqs)?
Please note: I'm fine with either, as each has its own benefits and drawbacks. I just need to make sure I know, so I can make the correct decisions on my Arcane Duelist (and possibly make corrections on my Eldritch Knight).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I was under the impression that the discounted crafting was allowed because it's part of a wizard's class progression, but since PFS PCs don't craft, the rest was handwaved--the crafting is done by some other wizard, and you get the discount because you're helping him or her in some way, etc etc.
Then you're of the belief that you don't need to make a Spellcraft check but do need to meet all the crafting requirements? Did I follow you right?
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I'm of the belief that you just pay the gold and not worry about it :P
Me too. This is one of those situations where verisimilitude gets thrown out to balance rules--anyone with an arcane bond class feature needs to be able to upgrade at cost, or they're screwed balance-wise. But since there's no crafting, we just ignore the details. Pay the gold, get the upgrade, don't worry about it too much--"a wizard did it."
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All of it. Why? Because in Pathfinder, you can Craft cooperatively. That means you don't have to have the spell on your list, as in game you can probably find someone in the Pathfinder Lodge to help you make your item. You end up meeting the CL (which in my experiences are usually very low) and just pay the gold.
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Multiple character may contribute to the crafting, each providing any of the necessary requirements. I assume this is just assumed to happen when upgrading/enchanting a Bonded Item. So no roll required, any requirements you don't personally meet are assumed to be met by some other caster during downtime, and all you need worry about is paying the cost.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As much as the answers I'm getting make my mouth water, what am I supposed to do about this?
...the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules. For example, a nonmagical bonded dagger can be enchanted to a +1 dagger for 1,000 gp instead of the normal 2,000 gp, but the caster must be at least 5th level (a prerequisite for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). To upgrade the item further to a +2 dagger, the caster must have a caster level of 6 or higher (three times the item's enhancement bonus).
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Similarly, my Arcane Duelist (whose bond must be a weapon) won't be able to make his rapier agile until 10th level (for weapons, the CL is a requirement)...
The CL is only a requirement for weapons for the "enhancement bonus * 3" requirement, and if it specifically says "must be caster level X". The "CL X" at the start of the ending statblock section is never indicative of a requirement.
As for the broader question - I agree with you, you must meet the requirements to craft your arcane bond item. I can see granting a bypass if you can succeed on the spellcraft (or other skill) check on a 1.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The CL is only a requirement for weapons for the "enhancement bonus * 3" requirement, and if it specifically says "must be caster level X". The "CL X" at the start of the ending statblock section is never indicative of a requirement.
If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.
To me that sounds like it's assumed that weapon special abilities have a CL requirement by default.
But of course that would be a moot point if it could be bypassed by adding +5 to the DC, or if it worked the way Patrick and Todd and Dust are saying.
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Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
This example is specific but I believe it is relevant to the issue at hand. Nothing suggests that weapons work differently (except for the special requirement that your CL must = 3x the enhancement bonus).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hm. Alrighty, well that changes some of the ramifications of PFS bonded item rules, but a clarification of the intent would still be nice.
In order to get an agile weapon, should my Arcane Duelist be putting max ranks into Spellcraft, or should he make sure to learn cat's grace? Both? Neither? I'd like to know for sure what I do and don't have to invest, you know?
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The "CL X" at the start of the ending statblock section is never indicative of a requirement.If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.To me that sounds like it's assumed that weapon special abilities have a CL requirement by default.
Why Jiggy... you seem to be inferring something something in the rules... I'm shocked :)
I believe that line may have been linked to the erroneous caster level requirement references that have finally been expunged. Regardless, the higher of the two caster level requirements would would be "3xenhancement bonus" and "0" for the vast majority of special abilities. The key point of the rule is that they don't *stack*, just the higher counts.
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Now that I think of this, I'm not sure if there's a crafting check or not. My alchemist never makes checks, but that's because he his take-ten is high enough to craft anything possible with Craft (alchemy), but I think the roll is otherwise required (though you can take ten on the roll). Since I can't find anything that says the roll is unnecessary (such as for Gunslingers and their ammo), I'd say a roll is required and the requirements will affect the DC.
You can still find cooperative NPCs to assist in the crafting though, so by all means put ranks into Spellcraft (and keep track of what taking ten will get you), but I'd say any requirement you don't personally have to possess shouldn't count against you.
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No where that I know Jiggy - only thing in the FAQ about it says you can upgrade your bonded item at cost (instead of price), but you must meet all prerequisites.
For items which can be enhanced incrementally (such as weapons or a ring of protection), the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules.
It says upgrade (from non-magic to magic, or magic to more magical), not craft.
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I started writing up a response to this and realized why it's such a difficult question. I will FAQ your post, Jiggy.
I think you are required to know cat's grace, but since there's no clarification on making the skill check, whether or not you need ranks in Spellcraft or even need to make the check is problematic.
On the upside, if it turns out you don't need to actually make the check, ranks in Spellcraft are never wasted ;)
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I would also like to note that your bard can indeed make a keen rapier with arcane bond if he wants to.
Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?
Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Majuba - That does seem to be what the FAQ says: no actual crafting going on, but must meet ALL prereqs. On the other hand, that means that a wizard couldn't bond-upgrade an amulet of natural armor without help, which makes me really suspicious of whether that's really the intent.
@Walter - In my case, my bard is exclusively played alongside my wife's magus, who is keeping Spellcraft maxed out (with a higher INT, too). So those ranks actually ARE wasted if I don't need them for crafting. :/ Good idea to flag it for FAQing, I'll do the same.
@Robert - Does that mean I'd need to buy a scroll for each day spent crafting?
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@Robert - Does that mean I'd need to buy a scroll for each day spent crafting?
It does appear to suggest that. You do lose the spell slot each day you are crafting.
So let's see:
Mwk rapier 320
+1 bonus 1000(using arcane bond)
keen (+1) 3000(4000-the 1000 you already spent
equals 4320 (8320 price)
So you would need 8 scrolls
Scroll of keen edge:
375x8=3000
Total cost: 7320
So it would be a little cheaper than buying it but once you have the keen property you can continue upgrading it without worrying about expensive keen scrolls. You could use PP to help offset the cost of the scrolls by buying a scroll with 2 keen edge spells on it for 2 PP.
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Did I miss a discussion somewhere in the past about getting help with the crafting? By what means do I get to say that someone's covering prereqs for me?
It's built into the rules for crafting items:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
If the PFS rules for enchanting your arcane bond use the normal rules for crafting, then instead of knowing/casting a spell yourself, you can get another spellcaster to do it for you, or even use a scroll or some other item which produced the same effect. Some GMs may make you pay for spellcasting services when you use a NPC spellcaster, but at some point you'll be teamed up with a PC spellcaster with access to the spell you want, and you can just use him for no charge.
Things like caster level (if required), being a particular race or having ranks in skills you still have to provide yourself.
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@Robert - Does that mean I'd need to buy a scroll for each day spent crafting?
I would rule no, just one scroll would do, but it is still consumed as part of the crafting of the item. If you had to have a scroll for each day of crafting, some items would have effective material costs in excess of their base cost.
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Why would you rule no? You have to cast the spell each day as part of the crafting process. You could have a wizard at the table cast it for you or buy it through spellcasting services in light of your other quote though. Cheaper than buying the scroll.
If paying each day results in it being too expensive you could just buy the item and bond with it, paying the 200GP per level to do so.
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My arcane duelist just ensured that he stuck to the minimum caster level required for the enchantment.
So, gain arcane bond at level 5. You can enchant your weapon to +1
Level 6 - +2
Level 9 - +3
Level 12 - +4
But many enchantments, such as keen, won't allow you to add them until you hit a Caster level, in this case being CL 10. So at level 9 you need to wait one level before you add keen to your arcane bond.
An enchantment like Dueling can be added as long as you have the prerequisite gold and caster level. It doesn't affect your total limit as it doesn't add to the enhancement score.
If you need to have the spells on your spells list for the actual enchantment, then arcane bond in any class other than the wizard suddenly becomes less of a benefit and more of a restriction. I don't think that's working as intended.
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I'm reading a lot about casting of required spells but I'm not seeing the part about the caster level.
Unless the caster level requirement is specifically tied to the casting of the spell? Instead of being a separate requirement?
If the caster level requirement is waived, am I able to use the Arcane Bond class feature to buy a +10 weapon for half price as soon as I can afford/fame it?
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There is no caster level requirement for special abilities when creating magic items. Nowhere in the rules does it say that there is. The only time there is a caster level requirement is for magic weapons which require a caster level of 3x the item's enhancement bonus. Some items might list a caster level in the list of requirements but that is pretty rare.
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But anyway, that's kind of immaterial to the main issue at hand: are we actually crafting, or just meeting prereqs and then getting a discount? Or both? Or neither?
The bonded object is already in existence when you activate the Arcane Bond class ability. You don't craft that conventionally.
That means, the only crafting you can do is the Spellcraft rolls. However Dust Raven's bolded rules quote shows that you can just get another Pathfinder spellcaster to handle the spells and presumably the Spellcraft for you between adventures.
From my reading, you spend the gold, stick to the maximum CL item power limit, and you're good.
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For items which can be enhanced incrementally (such as weapons or a ring of protection), the caster must meet all prerequisites for the item as outlined in the item crafting rules. For example, a nonmagical bonded dagger can be enchanted to a +1 dagger for 1,000 gp instead of the normal 2,000 gp, but the caster must be at least 5th level (a prerequisite for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). To upgrade the item further to a +2 dagger, the caster must have a caster level of 6 or higher (three times the item's enhancement bonus).
So to me it looks as if you must meet all the requirements at the very least. The FAQ specifically says so.
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.
Arcane Bond states you add the abilities as if you had the required item creation feats. So if you are to be treated as if you had the item creation feat, it would stand to reason that you would follow all the rules of that feat.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor (Item Creation)You can create magic armor, shields, and weapons.
Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.
Benefit: You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price.
The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.
You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Most of the time you can just handwave the Spellcraft rolls. If you craft a keen weapon the DC will be 15. All you need is a spellcraft of 5 and just take 10. 8 days of buying the keen edge spell via spellcraft services = 1200 GP. Having a level 5 Wizard at your table makes it free though :)
The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.Keen: This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen. If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll. This benefit doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, keen edge; Price +1 bonus.
The item's caster level is 10. The requirements to create the item are everything listed after the CL 10th as per the item creation rules. The listed caster level is used to set the DC for crafting the item. If you create it at lower level, the item uses the caster level you chose (must be high enough to cast the spell required) for the purposes of detect magic and dispel magic, etc.
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The core rules bonded item is a class ability. It does not follow the rules of item creation, because you are never creating an item. You are adding magic abilities to the item. Those magical abilities only work for you.
My take on it from the FAQ:
1) You have to have sufficient CL to have been able to take the item creation feat. (rationale: it says this explicitly; this is consistent with the CRB)
2) You don't make a Spellcraft check. (rationale: you make Spellcraft checks to create magic items. You are not creating a magic item; you are adding magic abilities to your bonded item that only works for you)
3) You have to meet all of the prerequisites for the item without bypassing them with +5 Spellcraft check.(rationale: it says explicitly in the FAQ in the that you have to meet the prerequisites. The +5 Spellcraft only happens when you don't meet the prerequisites. You explicitly must meet the prerequisites, so the +5 Spellcraft check never applies.)
4) As a prerequisite, CL is only a prerequisite for specific items that call it out, including arms, armor, etc. that have a special prerequisite of 3x.
5) Using spell trigger or spell completion items meets the prerequisites without bypassing them. (rationale: this is a bit of a stretch; we're now a couple of logic chains away from the core rules. That said,this meets the prerequisites by the core rules for item creation. Even if you aren't creating an item. This rationale is weak.)
6) You pay cash equal to what would be the cost. (rationale: the FAQ says this)
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Why would you rule no? You have to cast the spell each day as part of the crafting process. You could have a wizard at the table cast it for you or buy it through spellcasting services in light of your other quote though. Cheaper than buying the scroll.
If paying each day results in it being too expensive you could just buy the item and bond with it, paying the 200GP per level to do so.
The rules never say you have to cast the spell for each day of casting, just that the slot that would use the spell is not available. "As if they had been cast" is not the same as casting. Can you imagine having to pay for costly spell components in addition to the increased material costs for creating the item? So no, you just need access to the spell, and that access is through a spellcaster, that spellcaster is down a slot of the appropriate level for the duration of the crafting, but never actually casts the spell.
Now that I look it over, nothing states when you use a scroll or other consumable item it is actually consumed by the crafting process (unless I missed it). I guess if you buy a scroll to craft an item, you get to keep the scroll!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Now that I look it over, nothing states when you use a scroll or other consumable item it is actually consumed by the crafting process (unless I missed it). I guess if you buy a scroll to craft an item, you get to keep the scroll!
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).
The scroll must be activated, which the FAQ also refers to as casting the spell from the scroll. I think that makes it pretty clear that the scroll is used up, since that's what happens when you activate/cast from a scroll. Also, failing a UMD check to do so prevents your progress "that day", which implies that this process is something you do each day of crafting. Thus, you need a scroll each day.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The core rules bonded item is a class ability. It does not follow the rules of item creation, because you are never creating an item. You are adding magic abilities to the item. Those magical abilities only work for you.
I could be wrong, but I think the adding of magical abilities via the arcane bond class feature is still crafting. The two are not mutually-exclusive: you can use the item crafting rules to add abilities, not just make new items. Also, from the arcane bond text in the CRB:
If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its wand abilities when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties and can be used to craft a new wand.
So the wizard write-up seems to be assuming you're using crafting rules.
My take on it from the FAQ:
1) You have to have sufficient CL to have been able to take the item creation feat. (rationale: it says this explicitly; this is consistent with the CRB)
2) You don't make a Spellcraft check. (rationale: you make Spellcraft checks to create magic items. You are not creating a magic item; you are adding magic abilities to your bonded item that only works for you)
3) You have to meet all of the prerequisites for the item without bypassing them with +5 Spellcraft check.(rationale: it says explicitly in the FAQ in the that you have to meet the prerequisites. The +5 Spellcraft only happens when you don't meet the prerequisites. You explicitly must meet the prerequisites, so the +5 Spellcraft check never applies.)
4) As a prerequisite, CL is only a prerequisite for specific items that call it out, including arms, armor, etc. that have a special prerequisite of 3x.
5) Using spell trigger or spell completion items meets the prerequisites without bypassing them. (rationale: this is a bit of a stretch; we're now a couple of logic chains away from the core rules. That said,this meets the prerequisites by the core rules for item creation. Even if you aren't creating an item. This rationale is weak.)
6) You pay cash equal to what would be the cost. (rationale: the FAQ says this)
As far as what the FAQ seems to be saying, I agree on everything except #5 (since not crafting means you're not following the rules for crafting).
But ultimately, I'm questioning intent.
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Now that I look it over, nothing states when you use a scroll or other consumable item it is actually consumed by the crafting process (unless I missed it). I guess if you buy a scroll to craft an item, you get to keep the scroll!However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).The scroll must be activated, which the FAQ also refers to as casting the spell from the scroll. I think that makes it pretty clear that the scroll is used up, since that's what happens when you activate/cast from a scroll. Also, failing a UMD check to do so prevents your progress "that day", which implies that this process is something you do each day of crafting. Thus, you need a scroll each day.
I wish the FAQ was searchable. I was sure scrolls were used up, but I couldn't find where it said that.
I'd still rule only one scroll is necessary for the entire crafting process, as that FAQ entry specifically applies to arcane casters using divine scrolls as the source of the spell, rather than any casting using a scroll appropriate to his casting type, but would also rule the scroll is consumed during crafting (even though I still can't find anything that says it is). It just doesn't make sense to require one scroll per day of crafing; the cost would be in excess of the base price of most of the items you'd want to craft. The same goes for paying for a spellcaster to cast the spell each day. It would be easier and make more sense, to simply prohibit the spell requirements to be met by anything other than the crafter or an increase to the craft DC.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Now if only we knew for sure whether a bonded-item user in PFS was actually crafting or was getting a discount in exchange for meeting all the prereqs. Can't say I feel too motivated to work out all the details of a set of rules that I don't even know if they're applicable or not. :/
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Definitely uses up a scroll for every day. That FAQ is just describing how an arcane caster can craft something that requires a divine spell (without simply adding +5 to the DC). It demonstrates the normal requirements of scroll use, it's not establishing that.
Only 6 scrolls for a Keen sword. +1 -> +1, Keen is 6000 in price, thus 6 days, thus 6 scrolls x 375 = 2250gp extra. Still cheaper than buying it.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'm afraid your post doesn't really make sense as a reply to the OP. It doesn't address the issues raised, and kind of reads like you're only answering the thread title rather than anything presented within the actual text of the first post. All in all, it kind of gives the impression that you don't really understand what the issue being presented is.
Edited to try to make it not sound harsher than it was intended.
