Lay on Hands and Large Shield official ruling?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I so far thought that lay on hands and weapon + large shield does not work due to no hand being free.

But looking at the iconic palading:
http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/seelah---iconic-paladi n/seelah-iconic-paladin-7

it seems paizo does not mind, she uses a sword and a large shield, which normally would be a bad idea for paladin (and its not in-game out-game knowledge, golarion paladins must since long have realized, that with small shield they can use lay on hands with large they cant). So has there been some clarification, amendment or anything official?

I did not find anything searching.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Art work is never a good basis for determining abilities or interpreting rules. Furthermore, you assume that Seelah cares about lay on hands; perhaps she is happy to sheath her sword if the need comes up. Or she's of an archetype that doesn't use LOH to heal. Or she never uses it in the middle of a fight, only after she's taken down an enemy. Or because the artist thought she looked better with a large shield.


Its not an artwork, its a char with stats and combat tactics:
http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/seelah---iconic-paladi n/seelah-iconic-paladin-7

"During Combat Seelah is fearless, especially in the face of evil, and she faces fiends, undead, and those with malicious intent head-on. Against particularly powerful evil foes—especially fiends and evil dragons—she channels her goddess's power into her attacks with her smite evil ability. If she has already expended her daily uses of smite evil, she uses her divine bond to increase her weapon's power. When her allies are injured or in trouble, Seelah puts herself in harm's way in an effort to heal them."

So she does combat healing and she will do most healing either through lay on hands, which requires a free hand, or by channeling, which might require also a free hand:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric#TOC-Channel-Energy-Su-
"A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability."

So her equipment or her tactic is dumb.


Holy Symbols do not need to be held in the hand to be used. It simply needs to be visible, so a lot of clerics just have it painted on the shield or on vestments. Ultimate equipment even has the idea of a holy symbol tattoo (might want to put it on your head or hands; something visible when armored).

As for the gear choice, it is not hard to sheath a sword or drop a shield in order to drop a lay on hands if she wants. She doesn't need to have her weapon out to put herself in harms way and can draw it as part of a move action. Consider that the +1 AC against every attack from a heavy shield is far more useful than the rare situation that needs a lay on hands.


"Other Gear"
"silver holy symbol,"

Sorry, no solution like that. Though, she could have it dangling on a cord around her sword arm wrist.

Dropping a shield in the mid of danger is stupid, especially if just -1 AC avoids the problem. Sheathing the sword is a move action, lay on hands standard action, drawing sword move action.

With light shield one saves 2 move actions per use of lay on hands. Danger is not the place to waste 2 move actions.


Iconic characters are not super optimized. Nor should they be.

Take dual wielding Valeros as an example. Who dual wields with two different weapon types (In Valeros' case a longsword and shortsword)? You would have to double up on feats like weapon focus and weapon specialization. Or just dual wield with the same weapon...like kukris. That makes more sense.


Avianfoo wrote:

Iconic characters are not super optimized. Nor should they be.

So no rule changed and large shield + weapon still has the disadvantages it always had.


carn wrote:
Dropping a shield in the mid of danger is stupid
carn wrote:
"... When her allies are injured or in trouble, Seelah puts herself in harm's way in an effort to heal them."

Her behavior as described seems to be perfectly in line with doing something stupid like dropping a shield.

The Exchange

carn wrote:
Avianfoo wrote:

Iconic characters are not super optimized. Nor should they be.

So no rule changed and large shield + weapon still has the disadvantages it always had.
Correct.
PRD wrote:
A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Moral of the story: Don't try to divine the rules of the game by looking at the artwork.

Grand Lodge

Sheathe sword.

Lay on Hands.

Pull out sword.

Attack.

That is how she does it.

Shadow Lodge

weapon cord, now shut up :P (jk)

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
That is how she does it.

Or for bonus points: Ram sword into enemy's vitals. Lay on hands. Draw sword from toppling corpse. Attack next enemy. :)

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Sheathe sword.

Lay on Hands.

Pull out sword.

Attack.

That is how she does it.

nope weapon cord. all that needs to be said.

Grand Lodge

She doesn't have a weapon cord.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
She doesn't have a weapon cord.

prove it, they are redoing all the stat blocks


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Quick Draw feat works wonders for action economy. She could sheathe the sword (move action), 5-foot step (free), heal an ally (standard), heal herself (swift) and Quick Draw her sword again (free).


You could however have a weapon cord attached to your weapon. You drop your weapon as a free action. You lay on hands as a standard action, then retrieve your weapon as a swift. Done.


Move to ally, drop sword as free, LOH as standard. Next round pick up sword as move, attack enemy as standard.

How often does a paladin need to Lay On Hands? How often is a paladin attacked in combat? Is -1 max AC worth the ability to LOH without additional action? If she's the only healer, maybe, but it is unlikely that she's the only healer in the party.


brock, no the other one... wrote:


Moral of the story: Don't try to divine the rules of the game by looking at the artwork.

How often do i have to link that damn stat block before everybody realizes that i did not ask because of artwork, but because of stats from paizo?

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/seelah---iconic-paladi n/seelah-iconic-paladin-7


carn wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:


Moral of the story: Don't try to divine the rules of the game by looking at the artwork.

How often do i have to link that damn stat block before everybody realizes that i did not ask because of artwork, but because of stats from paizo?

stat block linky fixed for you

Linking the stat block helps. ;)

I would swap out Vital Strike for Quick Draw for her to make optimum use of her Lay on Hands ability. When a Paladin is playing the meat shield, they do well by having it as it is one of the types of in-combat-healing that is superbly effective.


MurphysParadox wrote:

Move to ally, drop sword as free, LOH as standard. Next round pick up sword as move, attack enemy as standard.

How often does a paladin need to Lay On Hands? How often is a paladin attacked in combat? Is -1 max AC worth the ability to LOH without additional action? If she's the only healer, maybe, but it is unlikely that she's the only healer in the party.

Healing in combat is almost a waste of an action. Under most circumstances it is better to just dispatch the enemy rather than try to heal in combat. The only exception being if someone is close to death, or low enough in hp to be at risk of being killed by another blow.


Healing yourself in combat as a swift action isn't wasteful, which a paladin can do, providing they're not loaded down by a heavy shield or using their swift action on their weapon cord.

My moral of the story: Don't try to divine the rules of the game by looking at the stat block. I see stat blocks with illegal potions-of-personal-spells all the time.


You can use this ability when using a light shield:

Can a paladin do LoH with during combat when holding a sword and light shield?
I believe so. A light shield allows spellcasters to use their hand to cast, and lets you carry an object; the only thing it actually prevents is wielding a weapon. Since lay on hands only requires you to touch someone, you could indeed use this ability while wearing a light shield. (- James Jacobs)

Now, it looks as though the post may have timed out (or I'm just tired and am having a little trouble finding it), but there are a few posts around where one of the Paizo guys stated that the sword and board paladin was fairly iconic, and they may not've intended to take away the ability to use LoH with a heavy shield. Then again, I may be misremembering.

That said, it's been fairly well established that you can't cast while carrying a heavy shield, and some of the paladin spells are fairly rockin'.

Personally, I don't see a lot of harm in it, and would be inclined to say, hey, go ahead as 1. There's not too much of a difference with light and heavy, and 2. The knight in shining armor with the shield is iconic flavor. Then again, it would also involve clarifying the spellcasting thing...which is going to have broader implications across multiple classes.

It's probably safest just to stick with light shields.


Or she takes the Birthmark trait. No need for a hand with that trait. ;)


Turin the Mad wrote:


stat block linky fixed for you

Linking the stat block helps. ;)

Thanks, though copy and pasting the line took me to a page with a link to the statblock.

Turin the Mad wrote:


I would swap out Vital Strike for Quick Draw for her to make optimum use of her Lay on Hands ability. When a Paladin is playing the meat shield, they do well by having it as it is one of the types of in-combat-healing that is superbly effective.

But if one spends a feat, one could get shield focus and use a light shield with total +2 AC. (Also avoids armor penalty.)

And the weapon cord others mentioned does not allow for swift self healing, so it still seems light shield is the better thing. But light shield on the other hand provides less AC bonus, so skipping shield looks much better than it is already compared to sword and heavy shield.


I'll be honest, most of the time when I play a Paladin, it is of the two handed weapon variety anyways. Let go of the weapon with one hand, cast or LOH, and then replace hand.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Lay on Hands and Large Shield official ruling? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions