I'd honestly love for the option of multiple ray spells to mimic the functionality of how a Ranger can fire multiple arrows per round, especially if given the OK-GO to be able to affect a single target more than once with 'tons of ray damage', but that might be too far departed from standard PF play. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it seems like in order to do that, you'd have to abandon even WoP, and start with a new spell-casting system, to work with D20. </tangent rant>
What you really end up needing to relinquish is the idea of parity between what the martial classes can do and what spellcasters can do. It can work fine with d20, but the way encounters would need to be balanced, and the rarity of spellcasters would both need to be addressed.
Let me first say that I'm not a fan of 4e-ideology, where every class is the same class, reskinned to particular effects, this way or that, so in no way do I idealize that for PF.
What I'd like, though, is that a level 10 caster can't ho-hum his way through any combat encounter of his level, because he can eat through HP that most martial classes can't compare to, even with magic weapons, and then use magic to buff skills and abilities in non-combat situations. I'm okay with situational disparity, especially if the point of WoP casters is to be versatile, while a wizard regrets his choices in preparation, or a rogue envies your stealth with invisibility (before he can acquire his own ring), but the situation shouldn't be that given a choice, people feel that it's pointless to play martial classes.
Even looking at the CR 20 challenge rating creatures, they, including a considerable portion of the rest of the game, would die to having to make 10 saves in a row against Hold Monster, and if it's still alive, the round after, you finish it off with an Inflict Mass Damage spell. As a WoP, you could coup de grace with rays, as long as you're adjacent, for even worse (more) damage. Even if (especially if) I was that caster, I'd leave that game, right there.
Rarity of casters still doesn't solve the problem if anyone in the party was a spell caster, and to add to that, a single enemy spellcaster, of the same CL as any member of the party, would more than likely be able to kill one or two members, even a full party wipe, if he had good tactics. The higher in level you get, the greater the disparity becomes. Even leaving WoP out, that's a terrible way to interpret those rules.
Seems to me the best way to consider it is that if EITHER the dmg OR the number of targets remains the same while the other increases then it could remain balanced if focused on one character BUT if they both get increased by lvl then it is overwhelming to allow stacking hits on the same target.
As for something that requires a save but has no other numarical effects i would say it can only be targeted once unless an attack roll is needed (like chill touch has multiple effects but you need to make an atk for each)
We have sold a grand total of 23 copies so far. 20 was my first goal which here a second spell word PDF. So I will get to work on that. We are still short of my goal for a full redo of the rules so if you have not yet picked up a copy, show your support and download Book of Magic : 10 Undead Spell Words today.
We have sold a grand total of 23 copies so far. 20 was my first goal which here a second spell word PDF. So I will get to work on that. We are still short of my goal for a full redo of the rules so if you have not yet picked up a copy, show your support and download Book of Magic : 10 Undead Spell Words today.
Add one more to your purchase count, because I think that the WOP mechanic space should be explored.
Given I want you to explore the mechanics, I will comment on some (IMO) design mistakes with this PDF.
1) In general WOP should not duplicate each others effects. This makes the first three words questionable. IMO a better design choice would be a metaword - "Threnodic" - that allows spells that would not normally work on undead to affect them.
2) Your effects are getting much too specific - for example, Fade from Undead - is exceedingly focused for a WOP. It can only do that specific thing. Yet there are already invisibility effect words (Fade, Disappear). Again, what is needed is a metaword type effect - "Undead Specific" - which would mean the effect on the target only applies to undead...
3) More Boosts. IMO, almost every effect word should have a boosted effect. For some examples, you could do this by combining the Undead disruption I and II words - we shouldn't really have words duplicating that effect anyways. Sunlight flash should have a high level boost to Sunburst - esque levels.
Add one more to your purchase count, because I think that the WOP mechanic space should be explored.
Given I want you to explore the mechanics, I will comment on some (IMO) design mistakes with this PDF.
1) In general WOP should not duplicate each others effects. This makes the first three words questionable. IMO a better design choice would be a metaword - "Threnodic" - that allows spells that would not normally work on undead to affect them.
2) Your effects are getting much too specific - for example, Fade from Undead - is exceedingly focused for a WOP. It can only do that specific thing. Yet there are already invisibility effect words (Fade, Disappear). Again, what is needed is a metaword type effect - "Undead Specific" - which would mean the effect on the target only applies to undead...
3) More Boosts. IMO, almost every effect word should have a boosted effect. For some examples, you could do this by combining the Undead disruption I and II words - we shouldn't really have words duplicating that effect anyways. Sunlight flash should have a high level boost to Sunburst - esque levels.
I didn't want to trash on the pdf because since you (Dale) made me want to play a words of power sorcerer I've been hoping they would get support, but I do want to chime in and say that I totally agree with part 2 and 3 of what pad300 said, and that part 1 is, if not correct, an option at least worth considering.
I Don't think he will take the feedback in a negative way. If anything its helpful to make future products more successful.
While I agree that some effects should depend on Boosts, you don't get enough Meta-Words for everything too need them. I agree a Boost for Sunlight Flash to replicate Sunburst would be a logical and all-together awesome addition.
I believe he said he is trying to avoid making Meta-words that replace all existing Meta-Magic Feats (such as Threnodic Spell), and (at least with this pdf) just get enough Necromancy/Undead words available to make a minimum viable necromancer style character.
I liked the idea behind Words of Power. I just didn't quite like the mechanics. I was hoping for something like the system in Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.
::When they first started talking about it I was mentally hearing "Pargon, Pargon, PARGON!"::
Give me something similar and I'll be all over it.
I liked the idea behind Words of Power. I just didn't quite like the mechanics. I was hoping for something like the system in Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.
::When they first started talking about it I was mentally hearing "Pargon, Pargon, PARGON!"::
Give me something similar and I'll be all over it.
Like I was saying before, everyone has their own idea of what WoP should be. I'm sticking with what Paizo came up with, but cleaned up.
At the bottom of this rabbit hole is the magic system from Ars Magica. I've read the core rulebook twice and I still can't quite wrap my head around just how the magic system works. It's really, really flexible.
Maybe if I ever manage to find someone to PLAY it with. But Ars Magica groups seem pretty thin on the ground.
At the bottom of this rabbit hole is the magic system from Ars Magica. I've read the core rulebook twice and I still can't quite wrap my head around just how the magic system works. It's really, really flexible.
Maybe if I ever manage to find someone to PLAY it with. But Ars Magica groups seem pretty thin on the ground.
*waves* Ave, Sodale!
Ut quid enim. ;)
(THREADJACK)
Going to Gencon? Want a demo?
(/THREADJACK)
I liked the idea behind Words of Power. I just didn't quite like the mechanics. I was hoping for something like the system in Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.
::When they first started talking about it I was mentally hearing "Pargon, Pargon, PARGON!"::
Give me something similar and I'll be all over it.
Like I was saying before, everyone has their own idea of what WoP should be. I'm sticking with what Paizo came up with, but cleaned up.
I want to say I totally applaud that stand by the way. I would hate to have a dozen different systems all trying to do the same thing, each implemented and supported by only a single publisher. I would much rather have a single system that is supported by multiple publishers (even if that support was only "we're releasing it in one book and never touching it again) and can be tweaked to any particular gm's needs.
On a side note, is ars magica compatible with pathfinder? I did not know that.
I liked the idea behind Words of Power. I just didn't quite like the mechanics. I was hoping for something like the system in Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.
::When they first started talking about it I was mentally hearing "Pargon, Pargon, PARGON!"::
Give me something similar and I'll be all over it.
Like I was saying before, everyone has their own idea of what WoP should be. I'm sticking with what Paizo came up with, but cleaned up.
I want to say I totally applaud that stand by the way. I would hate to have a dozen different systems all trying to do the same thing, each implemented and supported by only a single publisher. I would much rather have a single system that is supported by multiple publishers (even if that support was only "we're releasing it in one book and never touching it again) and can be tweaked to any particular gm's needs.
On a side note, is ars magica compatible with pathfinder? I did not know that.
Oh, I understand completely. If WoP is going to be used in a game, it NEEDS to be according to the official rules, so everyone is on the same page. The fact that I thought the other was a more elegant system is just my opinion, and one obviously not shared by the Paizo creators of the system. (Not to mention possible copyright issues.)
I will probably pick up your offer, just to see how it fits. I'm glad someone is willing to support it.
Like I was saying before, everyone has their own idea of what WoP should be. I'm sticking with what Paizo came up with, but cleaned up.
Lol...You heard it hear first folks! We are getting our cleaned up rules and new content! Lol.. Ok, incase its not clear (by the repeated Lol's), thats a joke and in no way an attempt to influance future product desisions!
I will say I mentioned too my players that there may be some more WoP stuff comming out, and they are interested/excited... Right up until they found out I now had 10 new undead words... For some reason they think Im going to use the new words against them!
Now realy... Would I do that?
I did mention that there were some new words to use against undead in there.... All they needed to do was buy the pdf.
(THREADJACK)
Going to Gencon? Want a demo?
(/THREADJACK)
Vae, non ad Genconum iero, quae tesserae ad itineram carae sunt. Sed gratias tibi ago.
(That Latin may not be 100% correct, it's been a few years since I had to do it on a regular basis.)
ShadowcatX wrote:
On a side note, is ars magica compatible with pathfinder? I did not know that.
No, they use totally different mechanics. I was just bringing it up because Words of Power is kinda-sorta similar to the Ars Magica system, in that spells are built by combining phrases to form spells. For example, in Words of Power you might cast "selected lesser cure" to heal a minor wound. In Ars Magica, a minor wound might be healed by something like a low-to-mid-level "creo corpus" spell, and may involve a chance of failure (calculated with d10-based "botch dice") if the caster is under stress at the time.
I'm currently working on the energy damage spell words at the moment. All of them can basically be broken down into 2 different words:
Odd number spell word level
1dx damage/level maxing out at cap as laid out in ultimate magic. instantaneous.
Even number spell word level
1dx damage + level /round (with a max number of rounds depending on spell level.
I'm looking for boost ideas. What I currently have:
5th/7th spell words boost to not have a save nor affected by spell resistance (9th level doesn't require a boost, it never requires a save nor affected by SR)
cold duration words boost to make a solid wall/area/etc
under consideration all duration damage words boost to increase duration to minutes. I'm really not sure about this one. I might say it cannot be used with selected target word.
That's all I've got at the moment. suggestions?
Before you ask: none of these words have a target word restriction on them. I'm combined acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic into 1 grouping: energy. And no it is not one 1st level word that lets you choose acid, fire, cold, electricity or sonic at casting time. It is 5 different words: one acid, one cold, one electricity, one fire and one sonic. And so on on up. That's a total of 50 different words in one group.
I'm combined acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic into 1 grouping: energy. And no it is not one 1st level word that lets you choose acid, fire, cold, electricity or sonic at casting time. It is 5 different words: one acid, one cold, one electricity, one fire and one sonic. And so on on up. That's a total of 50 different words in one group.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the rules say a spell can't use more than one word from the same group? So by putting all of the energy words into one group, you're making it impossible to combine two or more energy types in a single spell?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the rules say a spell can't use more than one word from the same group? So by putting all of the energy words into one group, you're making it impossible to combine two or more energy types in a single spell?
Good question.
*checking, checking*
UM, p163 wrote:
Effect words are split into groups of similar words. A wordspell typically cannot have more than one effect word from the same group, but there are exceptions. A wordspell can have more than one effect word from the Detection group, but cannot have a wordspell with an effect word from the Detection group and an effect word from any other group.
Well that's an arbitrary rule. Note to self, delete this rule or at minimum amend it.
Edit
I'll probably change it to something along the lines of, "no two words in a word spell can have a more powerful version of the same condition in it." So a word spell can't make you shaken and panicked, but it can make you shaken and ... compelled. I don't know. *scribble for later*
The thing that keeps running through my mind as I read this thread everyday is "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!"
Seriously though, I've been eagerly looking for someone to pick up the torch and run with it in regards to WoP. We've houseruled quite a lot in our games, and have homebrewed more than a few words.
Having someone create something like you're doing, attempting to do is wonderfully exciting. I'll be eagerly waiting your future releases Dale.
Nice work.
I would recommend not changing the base rules more than you really have to. I know you're trying to save yourself some work, but isn't a bit of extra work while sticking to your original goals, worth more than saving some effort while moving away from your goal of keeping it compatible?
I know you're asking about the standard 4 elements, but divine words that work around the positive and negative elements would be great as well. I'd love to see a negative energy spell with a boost to give half its damage as healing and/or temporary hit points.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
What about a simpler system for damage spells that allows effects as the spell goes higher level. Something like cold can add stagger if its x level up to stunned/paralyzed with some sort of affinity so it doesn't become prohibitively expensive to make a spell like icy prison as a word spell?
Dale -- I'm not sure I follow your description. If you've got fifty words in the group, one at each spell level 0-9 for all five damage types, what's the point of having them all in one group?
As for boosts -- it's hard to come up with ideas which apply equally well to all five energy types. They have such distinct properties. An ongoing damage effect works well for acid or fire, but not so much for electricity. A paralysis option would work nicely for cold, but none of the others.
What are your design goals with regard to the energy words? I guess I'm not clear what you're going for.
Also, as I was reviewing the rules just now, I came up with a puzzling rules question which might be something to address in a potential revision. Namely -- what happens when a divine spellcaster with the Experimental Wordcaster feat gains a level? For example, a Ranger takes Experimental Wordcaster at level 9 and learns one effect word plus the target words and boost. Then he gains a level and learns all the level 3 ranger spells. Does he also get the words of power added?
That's clearly not the intent, but since the Words of Power rules specify that rangers learn all the words on their list, and the feat doesn't say otherwise, a rules-lawyerish player could make a RAW argument that Experimental Wordcaster gets him full access to all the spell words once he gains a new level.
What about a simpler system for damage spells that allows effects as the spell goes higher level.
Interesting idea, but frankly I'd rather have that split apart. So you can add stagger to the cold yourself. Or you can add it to fire. or acid. This way, if you always want to be a stagger caster, you can do that, regardless of the energy type used.
As for boosts -- it's hard to come up with ideas which apply equally well to all five energy types.
For the cold duration words, it turns solid.
Tinalles wrote:
What are your design goals with regard to the energy words?
Design goals for damage is for each to be completely unified and makes sense on its own. i.e. there is no reason for 2nd level acid damage word that extends into a second around (and never gets longer) if acid arrow never existed. But there is that in the rules.
So I'm trying to make a damage system that makes sense on its own.
Tinalles wrote:
what happens when a divine spellcaster with the Experimental Wordcaster feat gains a level? For example, a Ranger takes Experimental Wordcaster at level 9 and learns one effect word plus the target words and boost. Then he gains a level and learns all the level 3 ranger spells. Does he also get the words of power added?
I'm pretty much thinking eliminate that feat. I see what the designer was going for there, but I don't think it works well.
Okay, I can get behind a common damage progression shared across energy types. That said, I'm not sure this one works out as intended. Much of the following is speculative, based on my plugging numbers into the framework you posted.
Here we go. The progression you gave was:
Quote:
Odd number spell word level
1dx damage/level maxing out at cap as laid out in ultimate magic. instantaneous.
Even number spell word level
1dx damage + level /round (with a max number of rounds depending on spell level.
I have questions about this progression.
1) Is a cantrip considered an even level for purposes of the progression? For example, assuming that a 0-level spell does 1d3+CL damage per round, with the max number of rounds depending on the spell level, then it'd do zero damage because the spell level is zero and zero rounds means no damage. You might need to add in a "minimum 1 round" clause in this case. I'll assume the metric for the number of rounds is 1+CL, so there's always at least 1 round.
2) How does the die size progress? The 1dx notation in the example leaves it up in the air, and that's important.
For purposes of discussion, I'll assume that the rounds per level for even numbered spell words are capped at 1 plus the spell level, and that the die sizes increase, hitting d6 at level 3 spells (as per traditional Fireball), but only hit d8 at level 9. I'll also assume that 0 level spells count as an "even" spell level. Here's how the damage works out (including max effective damage where the spells cap out).
cantrip: 1d3+CL (max 5) per round, for 1 round.
Effective max damage: 1d3+5 (6-8, average 7).
1st: 1d4 per CL (max 5).
Effective max damage: 5d4 (5-20, average 12.5).
2nd: 1d4+CL (max 5) per round, for 3 rounds.
Effective max damage: 3d4+15 (18-27, average 25.5).
3rd: 1d6 per CL (max 10).
Effective max damage: 10d6 (10-60, average 35).
4th: 1d6+CL (max 10), for 5 rounds.
Effective max damage: 5d6+50 (55-80, average 71).
5th: 1d6 per CL (max 15).
Effective max damage: 15d6 (15-90, average 52.5).
6th: 1d6+CL (max 15), for 7 rounds.
Effective max damage: 7d6+105 (112-147, average 129.5).
7th: 1d6 per CL (max 20).
Effective max damage: 20d6 (20-120, average 70).
8th: 1d6+CL (max 20), for 9 rounds.
Effective max damage: 20d6+180 (200-300, average 250).
9th: 1d8 per CL (max 20).
Effective max damage: 20d8 (20-160, average 90).
This is clearly speculative on my part, since your example didn't have solid numbers on die sizes. But adding CL to both damage and duration even numbers leads to a massive disparity in power between the odd and even levels.
At lower end of the scale I rather like the effect -- it keeps damage-dealing cantrip level words relevant for a bit longer. A CL 5 acid cantrip word would deal 7 damage on average, compared to 12.5 on average for a CL 5 1st level spell.
But as you go up, the gap grows sharply. This is most clearly evident at higher levels where, for example, the maximum possible damage for a 9th level spell at CL 20 is 40 points less than the MINIMUM possible damage for an 8th level spell at CL 20. But it shows up about 6th level, where the average damage of a 6th level spell at CL 15 is more than double the average damage of a 5th level spell at CL 15. That's a huge jump.
Is there anything I've misunderstood? It's hard to evaluate the mechanical effect of a system without hard numbers.
I'll write more when I get to a computer but short answer is that I said all words follow the normal max found in UM. For 0 level spells that is 1 die damage.
OK, Looking at UM, I think I see what he is saying. I'll Use Corrosive Bolt from UM as an Example. Corrosive Bolt deals 5d4 damage each round, for two rounds and effects one Target. That's a total of 10 die. Table 2-5 in UM says a 2nd level single target Arcane spell can inflict up to 10 dice to one target, so this effect word is ok by these rules.
A 2nd level Fire effect word, that deals 4d6 damage to multiple creatures, and sets them on fire for 1d6 damage the following round, would also be Ok (as it deals a max of 5 dice of damage, to multiple creatures).
Alternatively, a 4th Level Fire spell, may deal 2d6 fire damage per round, for 5 rounds, to multiple creatures. Or reduce the duration or damage and add a rider effect (such as concealment/movement penalties).
I know you're back to the 5 groups of elemental words, but just to chime in, that rule is what keeps "Servitor Servitor Servitor" spells from not happening.
I don't want to see WoP rules being re-written, as much as clarified for their intent, in the same way I agree with some of the criticisms of your Undeath words; if Undeath was instead, expanded to being used in conjunction with certain other effect words for specific creations, I would have thought that more in the spirit for WoP than to create a higher level Undeath word. For example, while Servitor provides much versatility with it's summon list, combining it with Boost Disappear turns it into an effective phantasmal stalker; less refined than the original, but satisfies the same role.
As for an example on rules clarifying, I don't want spells that just deal energy damage, taken in the form of a ray, to offer reflex saves (because that sort of thing makes me feel it defeats the purpose). Might as well, make the same effect a Burst, if that's the case, right? Then again, if my wordspell deals damage, AND causes a status effect, AND tests reflex, the ray versions should only test the save for the effect. That's something I believe needs to be fixed, but well within the existing rules structure.
Even spell levels:
Dale wrote:
Even number spell word level
1dx damage + level /round (with a max number of rounds depending on spell level.
I do like your odd/even spell progression idea (a lot), and that we can have more words like Wrack and Torture to add status affects to the even-level damage spells, instead of taking Ice Blast, just for the entangle effect. And this way, you can have DoT effects stack with conditions like a level 4 Fire word + Wrack, using up a level 5 spellslot, and being over-all, which makes a potent level 5 spell word.
Now, regarding durations, I think only barrier (and possibly line), should have a duration that can extend into the minutes. Certainly not selected!
Also, I think you should cap the durations by CL than spell level. Spell level should actively increase the dice, i.e. 1d6+CL (max +5) at 2, 2d6+CL (max +10) at 4, and 3d6+CL (max +15) at 6, 4d6+CL (max +20) at 8, all for 1 round/CL, unless they're cast with Selected, in which case, the duration should change to UM's normal durations, and the save should become "reflex negates", so that at the beginning of every turn, before damage is dealt for that round, failure takes the damage and the spell persists, while a success prevents the damage for that turn (and maybe also ends the spell). I don't think it's the degree of damage, but the fact that over those turns of damage, you can't help but take the effect, that makes it obnoxious. If the spell is an area, however, moving can help the creature out, and so that should be a reflex half.
My reasoning here is that barriers and emanations are surfaces and areas, respectively, which a creature could leave. Selected just... sticks, and that can become a little bit too much. At the same time, if a wall spell's duration is too low (3 rounds for a level 2 wall? That should be the minimum. 5 rounds for a level 4 wall? Most casters will start out at 7!), I'll not be very motivated to use even level spells, much, as they downgrade condition spells, as well, with such low durations.
In any case, even level spells should ALWAYS be test saves, and this is justified, because you are also using CL twice, in damage and duration - see Wall of Fire for comparison (Sorc/Wiz 4):
Quote:
Duration concentration + 1 round/level
...
Saving Throw none
...
The wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage + 1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it.
@Tinalles, the way you calculated damage also omits one thing: Energy resistances. At those levels, many creatures with appropriate energy resistances (such as spell caster with Resist Energy) are likely to take FAR fewer points of damage from even level spells than odd level spells. You should be calculating the damage/turn of those spells, especially because against any aligned Energy Resist of 20, a 6th level spell by a CL 20 caster only deals 1d6+15, now 1d6-5. However, given that you can target a fire elemental with a level 4 cold word, your argument is potent. That's why I proposed giving the even level spells a save, and if used with Selected, instead of 1/2 damage, negates damage after the initial attack. An 8th level varisian spell might be dealing at least 15d6 (52.5, on average, 26 on a successful save) in a single burst, but with our mechanics, an 8th level word would deal 4d6+15~20 (average 30, none with a successful save), each turn.
To touch on grouping again, I think it's important to maintain for sense and also, for mechanics, but then, spells like Wrack and Cramp make sense to be in Pain group, but now you can't combine them, together. A problem that can quickly arise, when players really wish they could do that and ask why not, but then, if you were to introduce other Words of Power status effects and combine them at will, I think that Grouping would be an important role and mechanic, in adjudicating what's balanced with strong theme.
Spells that inflict a condition should inherently mimic Wrack or Paralyze Humanoid in how they're written, and this is important, because we're also to mind the duration rule, which I know some people gripe about, but I think, has good purpose; it keeps the power level of some spell combinations in check (and should be a moot argument with your new even-level energy words, anyway), and also because it's the mentality of building spells up with the ease of throwing them together, as being mutually more powerful for doing so, but not overpowering, especially when delivering the various effects in combination, as that can easily be an issue of balance.
Three types of condition formats:
Type 1. "Save or Suck"
These effects are mildly debilitating, but only to the degree that they only last, on average, one turn for highly potent effects (knocking a target prone), or 1 round/minute per CL for lesser potent effects. Wrack and Wind Blast are examples of these.
Type 2. "Save every Round"
These effects are tide-changing, and can completely shut-down a target, so they grant a save on each round, at the beginning of the target's turn - they always have a max duration based on CL, and measured in rounds. Paralyze Humanoid is an example of this.
Type 3. "Combat Maneuver"
These effects mimic the effects of an existing combat maneuver, and are always instantaneous, unlike the other two. WoP has no example of this, but with raw magical power, and versatility, it's a mystery why some of the basic maneuvers, such as Bull Rush, Trip, and Grapple (we visit this matter again, below) didn't make it. Typical casting don't allow saves, but uses CL instead of BAB and your casting stat in place of Strength, when making the CM, often at close range, instead of melee.
These three types of spells really cover all of the basic conditions, as well as some effects which aren't a condition, per se, but a change to the flow of combat.
Some musings on which groups the effects should go in, as I went down the list:
I tacked these effects, not as individual words which should represent them, but as for a concept of what groups they should go into. I haven't thought about how much balance they would have, because I haven't exactly made words for many of them, in my mind.
*Example(s) of a spell-word which already does this
Bleed (Wounding) Bleeding Wounds*
Blinded (Dazing) A new Group? I thought that this would be needed, especially in order to make some other related groups more useful, such as Illusion, and also works great with Sonic and Force, but really, with anything. Dazing is a group for effects which distract you from being able to combat, through sudden overstimulation of the senses, or challenging situations caused by the spell's effects.
Confused (Dazing)
Cowering (Fear)
Dazed (Dazing)
Dazzled (Dazing)
Deafened (Dazing) I was thinking Sonic, at first, but then thought it should legitimately be combined with Sonic spells, or, have it as a boost option with sonic damage.
Energy Drain (Death) Life Leech*
Entangled (Binding) Ice Blast*
Exhausted (Death) While I thought it should be able to combine with harmful Death spells, a 'Harm' that exhausts (on a failed save) is only thematically weaker than designing many other harrying spell, in which the spell could be said to also drain life-force, on a failed save, such as being added to a Boosted Fog Bank, instead. This effect word also shows merciful intent, rather than outright killing, so its really okay.
Fascinated (Dazing)
Fatigue (Death) same reason, as Exhausted
Flat-Footed (Binding) I think there's a regular spell which creates a trap on a square, which causes an enemy moving through it to trip and be flat-footed? It was weak with the low DC, but as a word-spell, it has more potential
Frightened (Fear) Spook*
Grappled (Binding) Not to copy standard spells, but I loved using Telekinesis to use CMs at a distance
Helpless (Binding/Command) Also see Paralyzed; I notice we don't have any 'Sleep' effects in WoP, but such an effect should either offer multiple saves (1/turn like Paralyzed), or lowered DC during combat.
Incorporeal (Meta) This: Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects -this description makes for material an amazing Spell-word, with loaded potential. Question is, wouldn't it be better fitting as a Meta word, and what all will it do? I'll give a longer argument as to why I thought this shouldn't be an effect word, later
Invisible (Concealing) Fade*
Nauseated (Pain) Torture*
Panicked (Fear)
Paralyzed (Binding) Paralyze Humanoid*
Petrified (Body) Most logical for transmutation effects, eh?
Pinned (Binding) See Grappled
Prone (Dazing) Wind Blast* I like how Weather spells technically grant this condition with two of their words. Wind Blast does it explicitly, but under Blizzard, you're to make Acrobatics checks while moving, and if you're hit, during this, you have to make them again to avoid falling prone. Over-the-top, I know, but technically, if 'Prone' was an effect word, and you combined it with Fog Bank, I think it would be about on-par (in some cases better - every turn you'd have to save or fall prone), and take Wind-Wall, but allow it in a Line, with 'Prone', and you have a 'Wind Blast', but a higher level - an okay sacrifice for a spell-like "save-or-Trip" ability that scales with great flexibility! Boosting this effect can also allow for Bull Rush effect that allows a caster to make Combat Maneuver check with their CL + Casting stat modifier, instead of a save.
Shaken (Fear) Terror*
Sickened (Pain) Wrack*
Stable (Healing) Soothing Touch*
Staggered (Dazing) Discordant Note, Frost Fingers*
Stunned (Dazing)
Unconscious (Meta) Similar to Helpless?; as a note, knocking a creature out with a spell that bestows this condition, is no different from making the creature Helpless, so to avoid redundancy, this is for spells that deal an amount of nonlethal damage, with the intent of matching or exceeding the target's remaining hit point total. That makes this on par with metamagic feat Merciful.
Meta words?:
Merciful words?
Merciful is a very setting-oriented thing. If it's important, I think the regular Metamagic feat, or acquiring rods should be fine, but given limited ability to use meta-words per day, I don't think a meta-word of the kind will be a useful addition. The feat is more than kind, for this purpose.
Incorporeal words?
Incorporeal (or Ethereal) spells, however, are all sorts of fun ideas! The Ethereal plane is a major source for, well, the ether, and it only makes sense to give it some attention with the WoP's limited fluff. I have a suggestion for how it might look, here:
Ethereal spells may target (assuming the caster is aware of the targets, either through provocation or divination) and affect incorporeal and ethereal creatures normally, but deal only half (50%) damage to material creatures, and do not harmfully affect them otherwise (as in, bestowing adverse conditions). This doesn't affect Force words, which always affect material, incorporeal, and ethereal creatures.
Additionally, ethereal summons are summoned on the Ethereal Plane, and targets of Ethereal Concealing words are instead sent to the Ethereal plane, for the normal duration of the spell - conditions that would reveal the creature also brings it back to the Material Plane. Ethereal divination extends it's effects into both the Material and Ethereal planes, and may detect incorporeal creatures, in either.
Ball spell.
An idea I may have posted earlier? Regarding turning the even level spells into spherical objects, and turning barriers into domes.
So, I hope some of these make their way to your notes, Dale. I'm seriously looking forward to when WoP can be used just as simply as regular spellcasting. :P
As for an example on rules clarifying, I don't want spells that just deal energy damage, taken in the form of a ray, to offer reflex saves (because that sort of thing makes me feel it defeats the purpose). Might as well, make the same effect a Burst, if that's the case, right?
I agree, and I can confirm that the early drafts of these spell words address this issue directly.
Quote:
Then again, if my wordspell deals damage, AND causes a status effect, AND tests reflex, the ray versions should only test the save for the effect.
This one I'm not sure about. Dale may be able to shed more light on how that will be handled.
Note When I said duration capped by spell level above, I actually meant CL. I oopsed.
Nosferatu wrote:
As for an example on rules clarifying, I don't want spells that just deal energy damage, taken in the form of a ray, to offer reflex saves (because that sort of thing makes me feel it defeats the purpose). Might as well, make the same effect a Burst, if that's the case, right?
Like Richard said, the current draft I has all those that are a ray do not require a save.
Nosferatu wrote:
Then again, if my wordspell deals damage, AND causes a status effect, AND tests reflex, the ray versions should only test the save for the effect.
It actually took me quite a while to parse what you said here, but yes, we're on the same page. If it is a ray, the ray deals damage with no save. Pair it with non-damage effect that requires a save and the save only applies to the non-damage part.
Nosferatu wrote:
@Tinalles, the way you calculated damage also omits one thing: Energy resistances.
That is one of the things that really makes the average damage for duration spell words alot lower. If you tag the enemy fighter with fire damage for 10 rounds, the enemy spellcaster is going to give the fighter fire resistance at first opportunity. Spell effectively negated. Plus that only counts if you actually have the battle actually go that long. If the battle ends in 5 rounds, that damage is effectively cut in half.
I've considered making it 1dx+CL for first round and one extra die every subsequent round, but the above reasons quickly negate that idea.
Nosferatu wrote:
Type 3. "Combat Maneuver"
These effects mimic the effects of an existing combat maneuver, and are always instantaneous, unlike the other two. WoP has no example of this, but with raw magical power, and versatility, it's a mystery why some of the basic maneuvers, such as Bull Rush, Trip, and Grapple (we visit this matter again, below) didn't make it.
I'm looking at these for the Force grouping.
Nosferatu wrote:
Ball spell.
I've been toying with this basic idea as a new target word. Boosted Ball Sonic = THUNDER DOME!!!!
Tinalles wrote:
Lots of calculations based on speculations.
I can see why you made these speculations but they are not what I am working with at the moment. This is far from set yet, but I am looking at increasing the die size more often than its vancian counterpart. Compare fireball with delayed blast fireball for a moment. They are basically identical except for spell level, max level damage dice and a delay thrown in. If that same spell were built with WoP (going with the basic burst size and distance at the moment) and damage dice were kept at d6's for as long as vancian says it should, then it would either require a specialized boost (that that individual caster came up with, which may require a meta word use) or would require a "delay" meta word use (scribbles down idea). Either way, doing so would require "more" from the WoP caster than its vancian counterpart since it would require a meta word use. Short of the long, the way I see an appropriate balance is to increase die size faster than vancian. I'm not saying how fast at the moment since the idea is still in alpha testing.
Another way to look at this is the 5th level benchmark spell in UM: cone of cold. Paizo actually calls it, "a weak spell for its level; at the level you gain it, fireball does just as much damage and at a longer range, and cone of cold’s damage cap is only 5 dice higher than fireball." So IMO, each pure damage spell word beyond 3rd should offer something more than fireball. I've said above, I'm against adding conditions. So I'm looking at increasing damage at a faster rate than vancian.
Mind you, this only applies to instantaneous damage, not to duration damage.
I've been toying with this basic idea as a new target word. Boosted Ball Sonic = THUNDER DOME!!!!
ROFL Yes please! Honestly, a way to generate a Flaming Sphere type effect (that could be any number of things other then fire) would be great.
Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
I'm looking at these for the Force grouping
I like this too. I really like magical combat maneuvers. Hopefully we get some Low and Mid level options here, its one gripe i have with Telekinesis... Its just too high level for what it does. By the time you get it, most stuff is nearly impossible to CMB.
As Paizo has presented them, the WoP are best for "status effect blasting" and single summons (servitor spells are a standard action to cast, but must be boosted by three spell levels to get 1d4+1 creatures instead).
What WoP lacks is a wider variety of bonus types (shield/armor/luck bonus' of some sort). You can make a spell that grants +4 to Str, but then you just start adding another +4 to a different stat, there's no "growth" word that increases size. Since combining words increases the spell level the whole process self-corrects. Thus allowing for differing bonus' that stack together for superior effects at the appropriate level.
Also, a threnody type word that causes the spell to affect undead only (boost to affect them with effects they're normally immune to) would allow for a disrupt undead type effect (increased damage die, but only hurts undead, if mind-effecting then the level is jacked by 2 or 3).
I didn't think about ball as a target word. That could be neat; I'd like to use magic and just make random floating spheres I can control, sure why not!?
As for domes...
Nosferatu wrote:
... 10' radius burst, and increases to 15' radius at CL14, and if epic levels are in, radius 20' at CL 25.
I came up with these figures using Hemisphere's surface area and how much Barrier supports. At CL5~6 you'll get around a 10' radius, which is almost on par for how much Barrier's unboosted area earns in 3D.
If you're making dome effects at all, these are good suggestions, but I'm not sure if there'd be much of a boost with this, since it's size is based on CL (minimum 5).
On with new word suggestions! How about one for an Aura-effect, centered on you, but affects everyone around you - boosted to specify enemies or allies?
IMO, each pure damage spell word beyond 3rd should offer something more than fireball. I've said above, I'm against adding conditions. So I'm looking at increasing damage at a faster rate than vancian.
Mind you, this only applies to instantaneous damage, not to duration damage.
I think each classical element should get something fairly unique. eg:
Level 5. d8/CL (lets assume)
Fire boost: Spell deals splash damage from all targets of the spell, equal to spell's minimum roll. +1 spell level
Ice boost: creates difficult terrain in all squares in which it covers, or in which a target of the spell occupies. DT lasts 1 round/CL
Acid boost: your acid mimics certain oozes; GC (does not harm metal and stone, requires a perception check (DC = spell DC) to notice effect), GO (does not harm stone, requires a perception check to notice effect).
At level 7, I can imagine other properties of stronger ooze's acids, as options. +1 spell level.
Lightning boost: Choose one, visible target in range, determine line of sight of the spell from you, but line of effect from the target.
I'm leaving Force and Sonic out for now, since those damage types are their own reward.
If this is turning into a place where we throw words of power ideas then I've got some written down if ye want them.
One thing I always thought was that divine wordcasters didn't get enough love. Most of the battle enhancement spells are all missing and they don't really get anything that replaces them. So here are a few suggestions. Not sure if any of them fit in with what you were thinking for words of power, and the numbers and details (and names) were just plucked from my head and likely not balanced, but still.
Effect Word Ideas:
Precision
Level 1
+1 to attack per 4 caster levels
BOOST to instead get +1 to attack and damage
(bless, divine favour)
Forceful Blows
Level 2
increase damage dice of weapon by one size category, limits: personal
BOOST to instead increase it by 2 size categories; this increases the word level by +3, limits: personal or selected
(lead blades, gravity bow, strong jaw, but works for any weapon type)
Thick Skin
Level 3
DR 5/magic/piercing/bludgeoning/slashing (choose on cast?)
BOOST for DR 10, increases word level by +2
Collapses after 5*caster level or 10*caster level
Vampiric
Level 3
Steal 1d4 extra health on hits for the next (caster level) rounds, Personal
BOOST: Steal health from target (1d4/level), Selected
Shell
Level 3
when hit in melee, 1d6+1/lvl returned to attacker,
needs to be combined with another effect word to function, combining with elemental word determines damage type, lvl 1 word for lvl 4 spell, lvl 2 or 3 word for lvl5 spell?
BOOST to also gain resistance to that element.
MetaWord Ideas:
Sharp Retort
Level 2 Meta Word?
Reduces Casting Time to a swift action and removes save, but reduces duration of effect to 1 round. Can only be used with effect words that normally affect a creature for 1 round per level on a failed save?
(litany of etc.)
Thought on class spell lists:
Another idea I liked about the words of power system would be casters having a more fluid list of spells known. I was thinking it could be cool if there was a core set of effect word types that each caster had access to based on class, a group of effect types that their class couldn't ever get, and a certain number of other word types they could choose from among the rest. Over-simplified example since I can't phrase the last sentence better right now, on creating a new cleric or oracle, you would craft your personalised class spell list, start by always getting the divine-specific word groups like wounding and life, always get some global word groups like the enhance group, and then get to pick a number of other word groups to add to their class list, so say summoning, fire and fear, but can never choose any of the arcane-specific word groups, like say force, or something.
Then instead of having lists of specific effect words per level, each class would instead have a set of core effect words, a set of forbidden effect words, and a subset of the rest of the words available to them. I just thought it could be a nice way of getting greater diversity, would give wordcasters some tricks their individual normal caster variants wouldn't have access to, and could let a druid specialize into, say, fear and acid, or something.
If you haven't listened to it yet. Ryan Costello Jr gave Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words a shout out on the latest Know Direction (the live one, the podcast isn't out yet). I just want to say thank you good sir.
Not at the moment. I'm devoting all my time to the Book of Beasts: Legendary Foes. I have to finish that soon if I want it at GenCon. So just about everything else is on hold at the moment.
As promised, we have the next Words of Power release up. Book of Magic: Energy Words Revisited focuses on 50 different energy words. Acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic. All of them get 10 different words: 6 are instant damage, 4 are duration damage. Check it out and tell me what you think.
Woohooo... This makes up for my archery injury (Remember Kids... Wear a Bracer and Leather Finger Glove when shooting recurve... cause missing the skin on you're fingertips makes typing painful)
