Honestly, with the amount of debate that I see all over the place about the definition of "Nerd" and "Geek", I can't really buy into the idea that they have a hard and fast definiton that could come under "generally accepted".
There are plenty of places online where folks self-identify as nerds, and use it simply to mean that they have a large appreciation for popular culture.
My neice and her friends also self-identify as nerds, as do a few of their male friends. They're about as 21st century kids as one could hope to find.
The etymology of "Geek" is far more derogatory than "Nerd" (Circus side-show performer as opposed to a creature in a Theodore Geisel book :P), but, the way I see it, both have transformed from entirely insulting words to vague descriptors of people who are perhaps a bit obsessive about science and/or "non-mainstream" culture.
I haven't met anyone yet who can convince me to go against the overwhelming empirical evidence that the words are largely interchangable in today's culture. Maybe it's the descriptivist in me. :P
Edited for terrible spelling! Booo!
This must be something constrained to certain localities. In actual general usage (TV, movies, Internet, etc.) they're effectively the same word.In some linguistic backwaters that have yet to be brought into the 21st century, that's probably true.
I live in Florida.
You're not wrong.
Seriously though, I HAVE never heard them used as anything but interchangeably. It's just some words sound better with one or the other.
Band geek and computer nerd because band nerd and computer geek don't flow as well, for example.
Search "#nerd" on Twitter, and witness the self-owning and positive uses of the term. In fact, witness the interchangeability of it with geek.
One of the first 5 results was Simon Pegg's quote about being a geek tagged with #nerd.
That's fine.
What I'm arguing is, there's no overall general negative connotation to one word or the other - they're pretty equal in that respect.
A quick googling will show a great number of "positive" uses of the word "nerd" - quantities that should disabuse all but those with their fingers in their ears of the notion that the word is "generally" any more derogatory than the word geek.
Gotcha.
Thinking about it in reflections of pop culture... the only time I've seen nerd be used with kindness is in the context of the lovable loser/math whiz who may be sharp enough with that slide rule to make a million dollars. For instance, a girl who is considered attractive says, "I love nerds" and it means she has a thing for guys who don't self ornament in a way that is the norm, be it black glasses held together by tape or a Little Rascals' Alfalfa hair-du. These days, when I hear someone says they're a geek (and I understand your Google search varied) they're referring to the fact that they bought a Star Wars electric toothbrush off Ebay.
I would never do such a thing myself... because I STILL OWN MY ORIGINAL, Y'ALL!
(Drops microphone to the stage)
Search "#nerd" on Twitter, and witness the self-owning and positive uses of the term. In fact, witness the interchangeability of it with geek.
One of the first 5 results was Simon Pegg's quote about being a geek tagged with #nerd.
The campaign to properly define "geek" vs "nerd" is still in its early stages Brian.
Let's check back again in five years and see where we stand. :)
I will point out that Best Buy no doubt put a lot of money into testing "geek squad" vs "nerd squad" and you can see what they ended up with.
Sometimes following the money gets you to the right destination.
The etemology of "Geek" is far more derogatory than "Nerd" (Circus side-show performer as opposed to a creature in a Theodore Geisel book :P),
:(
Another cherished belief revealed as myth. I had been told GEEK was a US army acronym for a soldier with General Electrical Engineering Knowledge.
You mean this week? As in: Today?You do know that season 8 wrapped up last week right?I'm glad Supernatural came up because I'm an avid fan...well at least of S 1-5. Six kind of eh and 7 has only gotten better toward the end. They're going to make an 8 as well...I also found out from one of their extra videos of them at COMICON (I usually watch Supernatural on their site) that apparently I'm watching this show with along with a bunch of rabid 14 year old Asian girls. I'm not quite sure what this says about me.......
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah I somehow misread that the season finale was last week. I really need to sit down and watch the last 2 episodes
I don't know the actual etymology of the new use of "geek" but perhaps the label elitism to cause distance that Brian mentioned might be applicable there. Could "geeks" have risen to a certain level of respectability and then coopted and redefined one of the terms once used against them (geek), and left the other (nerd) for a subset of their kind more hygienically and/or socially challenged?
But however it started, I think the newer definition of geek as in geek culture is going to rise from no definition to def. 1 in most dictionaries. Time will tell.
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Etymology is a funny thing. Words take sometimes tortuous paths to their current usage. While the word "geek" may well have been used in the early 20th century to describe carnival sideshow performers, that does not mean that the word "geek" used to describe a highly technical person was derived from the prior use of the word "geek". Sometimes words are just made up. "Nerd" was supposedly made up on the spot by Dr. Seuss. Using "geek" to mean a highly technical person may also have been spontaneously coined by someone who had no knowledge of the word's archaic usage.
The earliest documented use of "geek" used to mean a highly technical person appears to have been in the 1970s. Based on the context it was used, it appears to have been already in general use in that regard by the book's author. There is no indication that it has any connection in that use to the prior use of the word.
My guess is that "geek" as it is used today was coined spontaneously early in the high-tech revolution of the late 60s, early 70s and has no connection whatsoever to biting the heads off chickens.
Well, wasn't "Pencil-necked Geek" taken by 'Classy' Freddie Blassie from Professor Roy Shire to describe the audience at the wrestling events.(Shire even threw pencils at the fans)
This would have taken the phrase from the wrestlers (or geek performers) to the masses, basically appropriating their terminology to a new audience.
The etemology of "Geek" is far more derogatory than "Nerd" (Circus side-show performer as opposed to a creature in a Theodore Geisel book :P),:(
Another cherished belief revealed as myth. I had been told GEEK was a US army acronym for a soldier with General Electrical Engineering Knowledge.
Don't be sad! Apparently it is, still! And according to some, it contributed to the usage of geek as a refence to tech savvy people.
Although, one suspects it could also have been the other way 'round.
But yes, A. Dragon makes a very good point: Just because the word first appears as one thing, doesn't necessarily mean it's related to that thing in later usage.
Words are weird.
Etymology is a funny thing.
Everybody says that, but nobody laughs.
Well, wasn't "Pencil-necked Geek" taken by 'Classy' Freddie Blassie from Professor Roy Shire to describe the audience at the wrestling events.(Shire even threw pencils at the fans)
This would have taken the phrase from the wrestlers (or geek performers) to the masses, basically appropriating their terminology to a new audience.
I wonder if that was a phrase he coined? According to Wiki (silly old wiki) he started using that phrase in 1961, I guess?
But then, also according to Wiki, the term "Geek" was first used in reference to a statistician in Heinlein's short story "The Year of the Jackpot" published first in 1952.
Hmmmm. Words are weird.
In other news, I spelled "etymology" wrong in my last post. Sad emoticon goes here.
Regardless, I still find that most people happily interchange both words. Perhaps it'll change as time goes by...
But I really like "nerd". I think I'll probably still use it as a term of endearment until I'm a million years old. :)
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As I suspected there is a cultural difference...as to why I found your definition slightly insulting. The people I listed are nerds, proud nerds.
As I said above I have been called a history nerd... I can talk to you about various subjects until your ears bleed.
For us a nerd is a person who studies too much and has too much knowledge of a subject for their own good.
A geek is the type of person who doesn't have knowledge about anything useful, although their knowledge of their favourite obsession is encyclopaedic.
This is from the Macquarie Australian Dictionary (revised on a yearly basis)
nerd
/nɜd/ (say nerd)
noun Colloquial 1. a person who is unpopular by reason of not participating in the social life of a school, college, etc., because of an obsession with study, computers, etc.
geek
/gik/ (say geek)
noun Colloquial
1. a social misfit, especially one who is overly preoccupied with some interest or pursuit that is seen as unfashionable.
2. Also, computer geek. a person who is totally preoccupied with activities involving computers and other digital devices, especially in playing computer games.
3. Chiefly US a person who makes a spectacle of himself or herself for the entertainment of others.
4. any eccentric person.
The campaign to properly define "geek" vs "nerd" is still in its early stages Brian.
Why exactly is there some "campaign" to derogatorize the word nerd?
What possible useful purpose could there be to do this?
Why exactly is there some "campaign" to derogatorize the word nerd?
The cultures where we live must be very different, Brian. In the areas I've lived (NJ, PA & NC) "nerd" has always been a derogatory term. IME, if there were any sort of "campaign" to change it's connotation, the only way to go would be to try and make it positive.
Hey guys what do you think of the word derailed....let me use it in a sentence...
'You guys have really DERAILED this thread.'
So the real matter discussed here is in fact Geek > Nerd vs Nerd > Geek :-))
Or Geek = Nerd. :P
THIS.
A thousand times, THIS.
Nerds are smart and may be geeky. Geeks may or may not be smart.
I don't know about that - one's "geekiness" is often measured by their level of knowledge/expertise in their particular area of interest. It's not merely a matter of passion (though passion typically leads to "mastery" or "expertise").
And let's not continue to make the flawed assumption that there's some kind of universal intelligence that falls under the umbrella of "smart." I know people who are master programmers, but helpless cooks; erudite humanities scholars who cannot change a tire; etc.
My days of being called one or the other by people other than my wife (who prefers "dork" anyway) are 30 years or so past, but back in my day, a "geek" was a social outcast, and a "nerd" was a book-smart geek. That might all have changed by now; dunno.
Oh, yeah, movies or shows with D&D references.
Has anyone seen The Onion movie? Aside from a classic Brittney Spears parody, and Steven Seagal intentionally parodying himself, there's a D&D skit as well that doesn't end well for the overbearing munchkin guy.