Now, we know that Overhand Chop cannot be used with a One-Handed weapon wielded in two hands.
What happens when Overhand Chop is combined with Jotungrip?
Advanced Player's Guide wrote: Overhand Chop (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat wrote: Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Overhand Chop requires a two-handed weapon, and gives double his/her STR bonus to damage rolls.
Jotungrip says to to treat the two-handed weapon as one-handed for the purposes of STR bonuses to damage rolls.
From that, sounds like they don't mesh.
Yes, but it is still a two-handed weapon.
Overhand Chop does not actually require you to wield the weapon in two hands.
It is a two-handed weapon that 'is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of ... Strength bonus to damage, and the like'.
For the sake of big weapon awesomeness, I want to agree with you, but I'm not sure how else to interpret the above quote.
It's a matter of which takes precedence.
blackbloodtroll wrote: It's a matter of which takes precedence. True, and I hope I'm wrong!
If there was some insight, it might help.
I hope to discover the RAW here.
It's a 2-handed maneuver.
Lamontius wrote: ... Dude, what happened to your old avatar?
It does not state it is a two-handed maneuver.
It only requires a two-handed weapon.
Whatever the answer: Would the same apply to shield of swings?
By the wording, they should behave similar.
Quote: Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Seems pretty clear it is not a two-handed weapon anymore.
I suppose the "the like" portion may be what you are referencing?
Nicos wrote: Lamontius wrote: ... Dude, what happened to your old avatar? I traded it in for an even more fancy hat!
blackbloodtroll wrote: It does not state it is a two-handed maneuver.
It only requires a two-handed weapon.
If you prefer RAW over RAI, have at. It seems pretty obvious to me that RAI is that it's a 2-handed maneuver.
As I said, I hope to discover the RAW here.
At home, we can rule different, and both my groups might do so.
That does not change the original goal of the thread.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat wrote: Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
The two handed weapon is treated as one handed weapon for the example the text give, nothing more. Everything byond that is a GM call.
I suppose is against RAI but overhand chop should work just fine by RAW.
blackbloodtroll wrote: As I said, I hope to discover the RAW here.
At home, we can rule different, and both my groups might do so.
That does not change the original goal of the thread.
The RAW is quite simple.
When using Jotungrip with a two-handed weapon, the weapon counts as one-handed for:
1. The effect of Power Attack
2. Strength bonus to damage
3. Effects similar to the above.
Exactly which effects are similar to the above is entirely a GM call, so one should expect significant table variance. There really is no wrong answer here; the RAW is clear, but the implications of the RAW, as in so many cases, is dependent on GM interpretation.
This FAQ seems to suggest a different ruling on this.
blackbloodtroll wrote: This FAQ seems to suggest a different ruling on this. The FAQ is specific to Power Attack. Jotungrip is an explicit exception to that ruling.
It work for, literally, anything except Jotungrip. Wielding an Earthbreaker in one hand via Thunder and Fang? Qualifies. Wielding a Lance in one hand while mounted? Qualifies. Wielding a Polearm one-handed via Phalanx? Qualifies. Wielding a 2-h weapon in one hand via Jotungrip? Implicitly prohibited.
Actually Kazaan all of those except lance say as a one handed weapon right now only the lance it seems gets 2 handed bonuses in one hand.
The FAQ refers to wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand. "As a one-handed weapon" satisfies that condition. Jotungrip is unique in that it explicitly designates that, for applicable purposes, you treat the weapon as if it were one-handed category, explicitly for Str bonus and Power Attack bonus, implicitly for any feats or abilities that necessitate a one-handed weapon (or, conversely, prohibits use with feats or abilities that necessitate a two-handed weapon). None of the others call out specifically restricting the effective category of the weapon. The FAQ doesn't specify that Lance is the only weapon that still qualifies as a 2-h weapon; it generally answers "Yes" to the statement using Lance as just an example.
Yes in one hand and as a two-handed weapon are different. If it said as a light weapon then no one would argue you couldn't use finesse with it would they. Just like if you had a feat that let you use a longsword as a two-handed weapon then it would qualify for feats like overhand chop.
One-handed is a game term it actually means something by the rules more than wielded with one hand.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Now, we know that Overhand Chop cannot be used with a One-Handed weapon wielded in two hands. How do we know that? What is your source?
RedDogMT wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Now, we know that Overhand Chop cannot be used with a One-Handed weapon wielded in two hands. How do we know that? What is your source? The ability calls out that it is activated when using a Two-Handed weapon not a weapon wielded in two hands.
Talonhawke wrote: The ability calls out that it is activated when using a Two-Handed weapon not a weapon wielded in two hands. Ah, it's a literal interpretation. I do not agree with the RAW, but I see what you mean.
In my experience, most groups play that a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands is considered a two-handed weapon when used this way. To each his own then, I guess.
Quote: Overhand Chop (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Overhand Chop does not work with Jotungrip because overhand chop requires you to be a two-handed fighter and Jotungrip makes you a single hand fighter.
Now the question about whether it works with Shield of Swings is entirely different.
Quote: Shield of Swings: When you take a full-attack action while wielding a two-handed weapon, you can choose to reduce the damage by 1/2 to gain a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn. The reduction in damage applies until the beginning of your next turn. Shield of Swings does not require you to be a two-handed fighter. It only requires you to use a two-handed weapon, which Jotungrip clearly allows you to wield in one hand.
Further Shield of Swings does not fall into the exceptions laid out in Jotungrip. Namely, Shield of Swings does not involve increased damage like power attacking or wielding a weapon with two-hands.
Clearly, any feat the increases the damage of two-handed weapons would not work with Jotungrip. Shield of Swings, however, increases your AC (at the cost of lowering your damage no less).
Now, might Sean or Jacobs answer a FAQ stating that RAI means that the two-handed weapon wielded as a result of Jotungrip makes the two-handed weapon considered as a one handed weapon for all other purposes. Yes.
However, if they meant that, I for one wish that they would have just wrote such. Until then, I think stretching the language of Jotungrip that far has no basis from a RAW or RAI standpoint, unless you happen to have inside knowledge and are a personal friend of one of the above.
Further, allowing Jotungrip to be used with Shield of Swings would at least make a person think about taking an Archetype other than Invulnerable Rager / Urban Barbarian. Further, it would not break the game even remotely. My two cents anyway.
Driver two handed fighter is the archetypes name not a classification of how your holding the weapon.
They may very well be referring to the name of the class and not to how you are holding the weapon. Still, it is a feat or ability that adds damage to a two-handed weapon attack. Even I, who rarely argues RAI, would have to conclude that Overhand Chop is in the same category as Power Attack and directly in the same category as "Strength Bonus to Damage" Thus, Jotungrip would say that Overhand Chop does not work with it.
You know this is going to be a FAQ and you know that the answer that will come back is that the two don't work together. This one is not even close.
Driver 325 yards wrote: They may very well be referring to the name of the class and not to how you are holding the weapon. Still, it is a feat or ability that adds damage to a two-handed weapon attack. Even I, who rarely argues RAI, would have to conclude that Overhand Chop is in the same category as Power Attack and directly in the same category as "Strength Bonus to Damage" Thus, Jotungrip would say that Overhand Chop does not work with it.
You know this is going to be a FAQ and you know that the answer that will come back is that the two don't work together. This one is not even close.
There was a recent FAQ that unless called out otherwise (as Jotungrip indeed does) that power attacking with a two handed weapon in one hand still gives the bonus damage. Just something to note.
So, the recent FAQ regarding Power Attack and two-handed weapons has no effect on how these two abilities interact?
blackbloodtroll wrote: So, the recent FAQ regarding Power Attack and two-handed weapons has no effect on how these two abilities interact? Yeah I just thought I'd point out more irrelevant stuff, since fluff and RAI were being brought into Rules discussions and someone was arguing that RAI it was supposed to work the opposite way the FAQ team recently ruled on Two hands and power attack.
Funny you saw alot of people calling others dirty munchkins and such in there until the FAQ team came out :P then they got real quiet.
I'd say they work personally.
I hope they do. I just doubt the answer will be that they do.
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