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I am having enough fun with my battle cleric who only has 14 Str at PFS. A few buffs at I am doing steady 1d6+5 damage each round. Is that alot? It isn't. But I didn't dump any stats and I am even grabing a level of rogue for more skills and versatility.
It's better to be versatile at PFS because you never know who you are with at table. In your example, you dumped CHA for instance. What if nobody in group is charismatic person? I saw once a mission which required such skill checks or it was automatic fail.
Just trying to explain how PFS is like, but regarding your character, I would say it's fine with few things you should know:
a) Clerics have already low skill points. Dumping Int in your case might be even okay since you can still keep getting 3 per level (favored class included).
b) As a battle cleric, I believe you are fine with 14 Wisdom. Just get headband later and 16 is enough for you.
c) Keep CON at 14.
d) Luck and Travel domain are generally best I believe. You have to check them a bit and see what suits you.
That's as much as I can say at the moment.
Whoa, hold on.
Okay, the first thing is that you are making a character for Pathfinder Society. In Pathfinder Society you are never going to be quite sure what scenario/module you will be playing, as well as what your party composition might be.
So...it pays to be good at a number of things, rather than great at one thing.
I would not suggest dumping your INT and CHA. You are skill-starved as it is as a cleric. Unless you would like to sit there most of the time when you are not in combat, you should make an effort to at least have a few skill points. Consider using your traits as well to expand your list of class skills and the bonuses you might get from them.
You don't necessarily need an 18 stat out of the gate. Think about taking this down to a 16 and spreading out your points a bit more. You will accrue Gold to spend and Prestige Points to spend fairly rapidly in PFS. These will allow you to buy gear and magic items that can easily up your stats.
I think you're a bit too heavily focused on AC through feats and stats, but this is personal preference. You'll find you'll be able to expand your AC at a good clip through gear and magic items as you level, so using feats and stats to do so out of the gate to such an extreme limits your versatility.
Lastly, I'm not sure you can carry a Heavy Shield, since for your spells you will often need to present your Holy Symbol. There are a number of ways to deal with this, but again, personal preference.
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Human Cleric level 1 ( Desna CG)
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 16
CHA: 7
Feats
H: Dodge
1: Toughness
3: Heavy armor prof
5: Power attack
7: Weapon focus
Domain : Travel, liberation
Traits:
(Rich Parent: is not allowed for PFS.)
Alternate racial trait:
Heart of the Streets(This appears to be available based on the documentation) +1 ref +1 dodge crowds aren't difficult terrain.
Deft Dodger +1 reflex (This takes your extra skill point a level. So as you have it built 1 skill point a level. This will cause you problems as skills are used a lot.)
Equipment
20g Heavy steel sheild
50g scale mail +5 armor +3 dex
12g heavy mace 1d8 x2
( You are required to have a hand free to cast. If you have a weapon and shield out. You can not cast spells. If you have a two handed weapon you can cast spells by ungrasping your weapon then regrasping. You can use a one handed weapon with no shield or just a shield.)
The question is what books do you have? As that can change what you can do. In PFS you are required to have the book or a watermarked (with your name on it.) in order to use it in PFSP.
My suggestion to you. Uses the following books Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Combat, Champions of Purity, and Animal Archive.
Human Cleric: Divine Strategist ( Erastil LG )
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
Initiative +7 (+2 if you act in the surprise round, and always act in a surprise round)
HP: 14
Domain : Animal (Subdomain Feather)
Eyes of the Hawk (Ex): You gain a racial bonus on Perception checks equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1). In addition, if you can act during a surprise round, you receive a +2 racial bonus on your Initiative check.
Divine Strategist
Master Tactician (Ex)
A divine strategist can always act in a surprise round even if she fails to make a Perception check to notice enemies, though she is considered flat-footed until she acts. In addition, the divine strategist gains a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 her cleric level. At 20th level, a divine strategist’s initiative roll is automatically a natural 20. Allies able to see and hear the divine strategist gain a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/4 the divine strategist’s level. This is a language-dependent ability.
Traits :
Reactionary (combat)
Blessed Touch (Faith)
Skills : 3 Points Per level
Feat:
H: Improved Initiative
1: Toughness
3: Exotic Weapon : Falcata (One handed weapon damage 1D8 Crit 19-20X3)
5: Boon Companion
7: Weapon Focus : Falcata
9: Power Attack
11: Improved Critical: Falcata
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You can up grade any weapon as long as you have the fame to by it. +1 is just always available. Diplomacy is used a lot for faction missions depending on the faction your going with. I suggest going with handle animal, diplomacy, and perception. When you gain your animal companion you will need handle animal skill. As for the falcata it's up to you weather you want to go with weapon and shield, one handed so you can cast, or two handed just for the extra damage. Heavy armor is not as important as mobility on the battle field in my experience. When you use a battle map limited mobility really shows up. I tend to use light armor even if the character I'm playing can use heavier armor. Mithral breast plate is the heaviest armor my characters tend to use.
Edit :
Blessed Touch (Faith) When you cast a cure spell you heal +1HP.
( Champions of Purity : LG Faith )
( Animal Archive )
Has so many rules for animal companions. If you are going to get one you will want this book. As there are so many things in it to affect your animal companion.
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There is a 1st level spell called grace that lets any cleric avoid difficult terrain. As for travel there are only a few gods that have access to it. None of them are very combat oriented. I'll fully agree with you the animal domain spells stink. One the other hand animal companion more then makes up for any lost spells for a combat focused character.
AC means something right up until you get past level 8. At that point your investment in armor can not keep your AC any where near what is needed. Unless you invest a lot in it. There are ways to do this. That is something you would have to focus on. Then spend 3/4 of your gold to keep at a effective level. I tend not to build around AC. Due to it's diminished return at high level play.
My current cleric has a AC of 13 at level 4. He dose just fine when faced with melee. I just expect to get hit when they get close. So I tend to make sure they don't stand up to me for very long.
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Bonus Tricks: The value given in this column is the total number of “bonus” tricks that the animal knows in addition to any that the druid might choose to teach it (see the Handle Animal skill for more details on how to teach an animal tricks). These bonus tricks don't require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don't count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can't be changed.
You don't need to roll a handle animal check to train the tricks. You still need a handle animal to get them to do tricks. Tricks they know are a DC 10 Tricks they don't know is DC 25.
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A one more thing to note about shield; I took the buckler since that enables me to use that hand relatively free for spell casting and such. With heavy shield you will always have your hands full, forcing you to waste actions on dropping weapon or such to actually be able to cast spells.
I always do this with my casters who use shields, too (clerics, bards, oracles). Weapon in one hand, buckler on the arm, cast with the free hand.
What's with the push for a cleric with an animal companion? I've never seen anyone build a cleric that way. Personally, if I wanted to play a divine caster with an AC, I'd play a druid.
And the heavy armor might be ok if you really want to go that way, but I don't consider it essential for a cleric. You can get pretty good AC without it, and you're going to spend all your money on armor if your really try to keep up with the AC arms race past level 8 or 9. If you're focusing on melee, you might be better off putting a lot of that money into your weaponry, so you can end the fights faster.
+1 on a save is never a bad trait to pick up, but cloaks of resistance are readily available. So it's not like you'll have trouble upgrading your saving throws.
Since you like the Travel domain, I'll mention that Desna is the deity of choice for people who want good cleric domains and don't want to have to worry about any sort of RP code of conduct from their deity. She's the CG goddess of dreams, stars, luck, and travel. I always think of her as the hippy "do what you want and follow your dreams, as long as you don't hurt others" type. Besides Travel, she's got Luck, Good, and Liberation, which are all pretty good domains. And Chaos, which nobody ever takes. The only down side is that the Luck and Good buffs, which are both great, only work on others, not yourself. So those are better domains for a support cleric than one who wades in and bashes things himself.
Cayden Cailean is the other big deity who gives the Travel domain. He also gives the Strength domain, which might be good for you.
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<I always do this with my casters who use shields, too (clerics, bards, oracles). Weapon in one hand, buckler on the arm, cast with the free hand.>
The birthmark trait allows me to wield a heavy shield and still cast unless I'm mistaken. Which comes out to +1 AC from a trait.
Spells with somatic components require a free hand to gesture. The birthmark just means you don't have to grasp your holy symbol in your hand.
As for druid how can you possibly push their AC higher than the full plate of clerics.
My reference to AC on a druid was the other acronym of AC - Animal Companion. Sorry for the confusion.
I wanted to make sure this was correct before I did it. My other question is about heart of the street. Does this eat a trait or just the skills
<Since you like the Travel domain, I'll mention that Desna is the deity of choice for people who want good cleric domains and don't want to have to worry about any sort of RP code of conduct from their deity. She's the CG goddess of dreams, stars, luck, and travel. I always think of her as the hippy "do what you want and follow your dreams, as long as you don't hurt others" type. Besides Travel, she's got Luck, Good, and Liberation, which are all pretty good domains. And Chaos, which nobody ever takes. The only down side is that the Luck and Good buffs, which are both great, only work on others, not yourself. So those are better domains for a support cleric than one who wades in and bashes things himself.>
I really like travel and liberation domains. Liberation is the anti grapple/stat condition domain and it's really good. The hippy god sounds like a good choice. I don't understand the love of the luck domain unless people are using it on something like the diplomacy checks for the faction quests.
Luck is awesome for a cleric who buffs his allies instead of doing the fighting himself. I have a halfling cleric of Desna with the Luck and Travel domains who stands behind whichever ally gets the most attacks per round and touches them with the Bit of Luck power. They get to roll two d20s and use the better result on each attack. Making sure the barbarian hits even on his 2nd or 3rd iterative attack with a two handed weapon and power attack is more useful than any damage I could do myself. Same with the Good domain power, which gets awesome at higher levels, even though it starts slow. I combined it with the halfling cleric favored class bonus from the Advanced Players Guide, so I can boost the number of times per day I can use the Bit of Luck power every two levels.
As for the AC arms race there just isn't much to spend money on anymore now that you can't +dex, +str, +con, +wis, +cha. You've got a weapon, armor, sheild, wis, str, and pearls of power. I don't know what else you're spending money on but at level 8 assuming average char wealth (I could be wrong given that I don't understand the wealth in PFS) At level 8 to have reasonable items you'd need 2,300 +1 weapon, 5,650 +2 full plate, 4,170+2 heavy sheild, 8000 +2 wis and +2 str item. Total cost 20,120. Explain to me what besides another +1 to your weapon you'd spend that on. According to the character wealth table that's less than the 7th level costs. If you wanted to add +2 to your weapon that's level 8. +1 natural armor and +3 shield +3 armor at 9th. I don't have a clue what you're all spending money on or if PFS just gives you very little gold but for the cost of a +3 weapon I could have +6 armor. While my weapon shouldn't lose too much of a bonus the +3 is largely pointless.
In PFS, you can buy almost any item in any of the Paizo books. There's a limit as to how much you can spend on a single item, but that goes up as you earn more Prestige Points from playing more adventures. Most people buy stat boosters by level 4 or 5 for 4000 gold each. In your case, that will probably be a headband for wisdom and a belt for strength. Then there's stuff like the Phylactery of Positive Channeling if you want to be really good at that, though a battle cleric probably isn't focused on channeling much. Or Circlet of Persuasion if you want to be really good at diplomacy. And as a cleric, you'll definitely want to have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds with you at all times. Actually, everyone should have their own, even if they have to hand it to someone else to use. Paying for your own healing is just common courtesy.
Yes, you can keep up with the AC arms race, but at the cost of not being able to afford some of this other stuff. It's all about deciding how you want to balance things on your PC.
<This thread would be much more appropriate in the PFS forums, would it not?>
I didn't realize there was a PFS subform. My bad.
I wouldn't put this thread in the PFS subforum. This is a thread about advice on building a PC, which isn't a PFS specific conversation just because the PC happens to be for PFS.
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Well, magic weapons are expensive, but necessary, especially since your BAB won't be as good as a fighter or barbarian. And like I said, you'll want stat boosting items, at 4000 each, and even more to upgrade. I'm sure you'll come up with wands, potions, scrolls, and other consumables you want. And most people get a Handy Haversack somewhere along the way, to make carrying and pulling out those items easier.
Other than that, I don't know offhand what a battle cleric would spend money on, since I haven't really done that type of PC myself.
I do think your example shows the down side of spending too much time buffing in combat. You spent your first two rounds casting buffs, followed by Spiritual Weapon. By then, your allies will have spent 3 rounds attacking, while you haven't even used your weapon yet. It's possible your allies might bring that enemy down before you even start attacking. If you're going to be a front line combatant, don't spend more than a round on self buffs once initiative starts, and don't bother with stuff like Spiritual Weapon while on the front line. SW is a great spell, but it's mainly for use against distant enemies, or by clerics who aren't right there in front with a sword in hand.
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0) Please, please, please! Read through this post! PFS Survival 101 There are some others like it, they give some great advice for people just starting out in PFS and some of the ways it differs from standard home games.
1) I'm a heavily armored inquisitor (rather than cleric but similar concept).
A common opinion is that heavily armored isn't really worth it since it slows you so much, costs so much, hurts many skill checks, and later on pretty much everything will hit you anyway (attack ratings generally go up faster than you can crank your AC).
But that doesn't make it a horrible choice. Just not the super be all end all uber optimum. I can live with that. Plus it definitely helps at the lower level to survive until the higher levels.
2) Generally it is accepted that a high strength melee cleric will go for power attacking with the two-handed melee weapon. Greataxe, greatsword, elven curved blade, etc... It is by no means the only way to go, but it is almost a standard. Sword and board is a little tougher in PF for a class that doesn't get a bunch of bonus feats.
3) Desna does have 3 of what are often considered the best domains possible. However, melee clerics will often pick based on what god gives access to the martial weapon they wanted to use anyway.
4) The rich trait is not allowed for PFS. Everyone just starts with 150 gp. I usually take a faction trait anyway. Just so I feel more connected to the faction.
But don't worry too much about it. Your wealth goes up pretty fast in PFS. Yes, you are cleric that can convert spells. I would still recommend you use your first 2 prestige points to buy a wand of CLW. Always have at least a potion of curelight wounds on you and tell your party. That way if you go down, someone can pour it down your throat. Sometimes people can’t or won’t use their own resources to heal you. Have something you can use on swarms. MANY of the earlier season low level scenarios have swarms that have stopped the mission because no one could do anything about them. Buy cheaper armor so you can have a few vials of fire or acid. You can almost always get by with AC only 1 or 2 points worse for a single level 1 scenario. Then you have enough to buy a breastplate.
5) Dumping 2 stats is very risky in PFS. Very few scenarios are just combat. Many of the scenarios require you to figure out X, convince Y, make a deal with T, sneak into R, etc… Since you don’t know who is going to be at the table you simply can’t always assume there will be someone else who can make all the skill checks. Sometimes there just isn’t. Dumping both int and cha means you have no skills and no social grace. One could make up for the other. If you have a low cha you can put some points into diplomacy and be ok at social stuff anyway. Or if you dumped int but raised cha you can still be well enough liked to get by sometimes. You say you will usually be with a bard. That will help, but unless he is always there and takes the same faction as you, you could be in trouble. I would suggest lowering your str to 16 and raising either the int or cha.
Perception is usually considered the most important skill. Diplomacy is usually considered a very close second (some will take bluff, intimidate, or sense motive instead of diplomacy). Knowledge skills come in every single scenario I have played. Linguistics (or comprehend languages) is pretty common. Enough ranks to get a +1 in UMD is very nice to be able to activate out of combat wands from other classes.
6) Channeling is not quite what it was, but can still be good. But usually not for a melee cleric that dumps charisma. Just consider it a free area heal to use after the fight.
7) Check out Guide to the Guides for some more advice that is not specific to PFS.
8) You might consider a paladin or inquisitor. Since you are talking about not casting that many spells and they don't have as many. More of their abilities are combat oriented.
9) You said,
... I find being properly prepared tends to avert the need for consumables ...
To a large extent, being "properly prepared" in PFS is having some consumables. As mentioned before. you don't always know who is going to be at the table or what you are going to need.
So maybe you do need a scroll of disguise self, knock, comprehend languages, oil of daylight, silver blanch, shrink item, alchemists fire, sunrod, crossbow, anti-venom, etc...Low level scrolls, potions, consumable, even wands are cheap to keep a few around for when you really need them.
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Yes, assimar is allowed.
Oread only with a boon.
Check this for what is allowed Additional Allowed Resources
Not everything listed in that thread applies to every character. If you have a differnt way to take care of all those situations at all levels, that is fine. Those are experienced PFS players and GM's putting up suggestions on possible ways to handle things that they often see players not have any way to handle.
Many builds do not have access to (or don't want to prep) a spell that will hit undead. That item is for them. Also you may not have enough spells prepared if there are several ghosts or creatures with DR. A relatively cheap weapon blanch gives you 50 arrow attacks. That can go a long way especially at early levels.
Also, you begin to see some of those creatures prossibly before you will have the magic weapons to bypass all of the DR.
I don't believe 2 points of AC completely invalidates any concept. But you certainly don't have to run it if you don't want to.
I didn't say the armored tank is bad, I am playing one after all. But I can't tell which you are primarily going after. Insisting on the 18 str sounds like you are trying for a aDPS build which usually means THW and a bit lighter on defense. Heavy armor and shield sounds like you want the armored tank. Then str is usually a bit lower to up con and dex a bit more.
If you are trying to be major DPS, tank, and support caster all at the same time I think you will be disappointed.
I very much disagree with the statement that charisma is the worst stat. I see it used a lot and making a big difference in a lot of interaction encounters. In home games and even more especially in PFS games. Several times recently I have sat down at a table where every single character other than me had a -1 to -3 on every single social skill. If I hadn't joined them, they would have easily survived every combat and failed the mission unless they happened to roll wildly well several times in a row. You are likely to also have more than one faction present at a table. Some of the faction missions specify that you can't let anyone else know about it. So that means you can't have the other PC's help you. But I won't argue with you any more on this. I've made my suggestions, you are free to ignore them.
Channeling can be extrememly good if you focus on it. Especially in the low to mid levels, which is most of the PFS career. Check out the variant channeling abilities, assimar force channeling, versatile channeler, undead lord, etc... for some ideas. The next PFS character I do will be a channel focus build (or a sunder expert, can't decide which). But it has nothing to do with a melee build.
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I'll agree with the above post that you need to pick your specialty. You seem to want to let channeling fall by the way side, which is fine. If you focus on it, it can be good, but if you're going melee cleric, you'll probably want those points somewhere other than charisma.
But it's all a balancing act. If you go with a shield to maximize HP, then it'll cut into your damage, because you'll only be damaging things with one hand. If you put lots of points in str for the damage, then you won't have as many to put in wisdom for casting. If you're using your spells mostly for buffing, then that's fine.
Skills are nice to have, but clerics won't get many. If you're ok with missing a faction mission once in a while, then go ahead and dump int to get more points for elsewhere.
Like I said, it's all about balance, and deciding what you want to do with the build. Just be aware that you won't be able to do everything.
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... If you're ok with missing a faction mission once in a while, then go ahead and dump int to get more points for elsewhere ...
If you are really ok with it, that is fine. Everyone I have played with that dumped 2 stats says they are ok with failing the faction missions. Then they grumble constantly about being 1/3 to 1/2 behind everyone else on prestige points and fame. {shrug}
Should mention. I have heard that they are doing away with seperate faction missions for season 5. However, the primary mission will be even more dependant on the social skills that were in the faction mission. So you might be able to rely more on your fellows' social skills. But you might not. No one really knows.
And you will still probably see a lot of season 1-4 scenarios being run where they are useful to get your faction prestige.
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Well, I haven't read through the whole thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything or missed something important, but here's some thoughts:
First, for a melee cleric, I've greatly enjoyed the Glory (Heroism) domain/subdomain, for a couple of reasons. Directly relating to my melee role is the fact that I get heroism as a domain spell. That spell is AMAZING. In particular, a great many PFS scenarios will have multiple encounters separated by mere minutes. I'll often find myself at the entrance to an evil lair or haunted house or what have you, and I know I'll be having lots of fights within the next hour. One heroism will often last the rest of the scenario in cases like that, which is fantastic.
Additionally, the Glory domain lets me add my level to CHA-based skill checks a few times per day, which really lessens the impact of not prioritizing CHA in my stats (I have a 10).
Another tip: once you hit 6th level, divine favor becomes an amazing buff spell. Only lasts for one fight, but from 6th level onwards it's as big a buff as bull's strength except it stacks with a STR belt (and with heroism and a good deal of other things) and only costs you a 1st-level spell slot. It'll be a staple in mid levels.
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They can run old season scenarios? I thought those became retired after the season ended like living greyhawk. Additionally is diplomacy even enough to do social encounters alone? Will having it even help me do faction missions or will I need a another social skill. I really can't seem to find a way to get 3-4 skills without tanking my casting or melee neither of which I want to do.
Scenarios don't get automatically retired because of age in PFS. There are a few older ones that got retired for other reasons, but not just because they were old.
And you can play them in any order. So as you play older scenarios, some of the metaplot stuff will get lost along the way, from playing them out of order. But they're pretty modular, so you can still have an enjoyable time playing most of them without the background from other scenarios.
As for skills, I wouldn't worry too much. No matter what you do, you'll sometimes end up with faction missions that require a skill you don't have. Diplomacy is the obvious one that comes up for a lot of factions in a lot of missions. But I've seen lots of random knowledge checks, linguistics checks, sleight of hand, etc.
In a lot of cases, your teammates can help with your faction mission, as long as it doesn't say it has to be done in secret. This is why certain classes are more popular than others. Clerics are popular for healing, bards are popular for faction missions (Bardic Knowledge!!!)
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Oh yeah they keep rerunning the old scenarios. I don't know of any that aren't allowed to be run anymore. Although I have heard that First Steps Part II and III will be retired this fall.
Diplomacy alone won't get you every faction mission complete. But it will get alot of them and is usually a help on the others. I usually take at least 1 rank in all my class skills over the first few levels. That +3 bump is usually enough to make it usable some of the time.
Plus many of the skill checks are actually pretty low DC. But many of them you can't even make the attempt untrained.
That's another reason I decided to try the inquisitor. More useful class skills, more skill points, and some extra bonuses to the skill checks.
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Oh yeah they keep rerunning the old scenarios. I don't know of any that aren't allowed to be run anymore. Although I have heard that First Steps Part II and III will be retired this fall.
If you look through the season 0 scenarios, you'll notice that there are several gaps in the numbering system. Those were scenarios that are no longer around, because they're retired.
From what I heard, most of those were death traps for whatever reason where PCs didn't stand a chance. Either that, or it was later decided that they didn't fit the theme of the campaign.
Having just played "The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch" this week, I can't understand how that one managed to avoid retirement. Nobody with a lawful or good alignment should be able to complete that mission. Even my Chaotic Good prankster bard had a hard time going along with the main mission, and he's not usually one to be concerned with rules or laws.
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I know you've kind of already settled on your deity, but if you're looking for a way to get your social skills up without sacrificing front line effectiveness (and don't want to be a healbot), I have a suggestion.
Choose Abadar (Lawful Neutral) as your deity, and choose to channel negative energy instead of positive.
PROS:
You now have an AoE attack that lets you quickly clear rooms of low-level enemies.
Your Charisma is now worth buying a bonus in, as it powers your nova damage as well as your social skills.
Wands of Cure Light Wounds are fairly easy to come by, and you can still activate them no problem.
You keep the Travel domain.
CONS:
Negative Energy will damage your allies as well unless you take a feat.
Even if you take the feat, your allies won't be happy when they hear you chose to spont-cast Inflict.
If undead show up, you're out of luck.
Abadar's favored weapon is a crossbow.
There's slim pickings in the way of a second domain. (The Inevitable subdomain is a nice choice if you like casting Command)
As for social situations in PFS, I can't say for sure but I would think you'd at least be able to contribute via Sense Motive. And if you can improvise, you should be able to find solutions that play to your strengths.
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I believe Divine Warrior would be for the duration of the spell, but won't work with Divine Power. That effects you not a weapon. You would use it with a spell like Greater Magic Weapon or Align Weapon.
I am not entirely 100% sure if Heat of the Street and Deft Dodger stack or not.
If I was taking tower shield, I would drop power attack and str to raise con and dex and get another feat. If you are using one of those hitting things really isn't your priority and power attack will also reduce your chance to hit. Tower shield gives a -2 to hit, power attack lowers still more, and it’s a ¾ BaB class.
I am not up on the ioun stones. But few things are a free action to activate.
Both look pretty good. Personally, I would probably take the 2nd over the 1st. But I don't like playing humans.