| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone just pointed out an extremely useful item to me and I want to crowd source you all to find other spells that are worth it too.
Riffle scrolls! It's a scroll with a silent spell on it. Now the best thing about this is that because the spell requires a higher spell level to cast it also has a higher caster level. For most spells this may not be worth it but for some it is.
Ex:
Scroll of Communal Resist Energy
Level 3 spell, caster level 5
50 min of energy resistance 10 split among the party
Riffle scroll of Communal Resist Energy
Level 4 spell, caster level 7
70 min on energy resistance 20 split among the party
Double the energy resistance! .... for slightly less than double the price.
Does any one know of any other spells for scrolls that would be greatly improved by a 2 caster level bump.
But, Lab_Rat, you pointed out yourself in another thread that scrolls cannot be purchased with metamagic feats (such as Silent Spell) applied.
Like I said...I just found out about them.
Riffle Scrolls are an alternative to scrolls (its more like a flip through picture book from the description) that always comes with the silent spell metamagic attached. They are a separate type of item. It is PFS legal and found in Inner Sea Magic. This is the ONLY case I know of.
Riffle scrolls are intriguing. Even though all scrolls are made at minimum caster level, riffle scrolls are legal and they increase the effective level of the spell, thus requiring a higher caster level to make. That's a pretty nifty trick Lab Rat. A level 3 spell made into a Riffle Scroll would cost 700 GP, so you can buy one with prestige points if you wanted. Just make sure to note that this does not actually increase the spell level, therefore the save DCs will be based on the lower level and not the increased level.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Another great use of Riffle Scrolls os to put daylight onto them. This would make the caster level high enough to counter act Deeper Darkness.
1) Deeper darkness (or darkness, for that matter) doesn't care about caster level, only spell level.
2) With that in mind, the riffle scroll doesn't help, because metamagic adjustments don't affect the actual spell level, just what slot it takes up (unless it's Heighten Spell, of course).
Daylight already counteracts deeper darkness. Increasing the caster level will change nothing except add 20 minutes to the duration.
Also, what Jiggy said.
I don't know if id do it with an evocation spell. The save DCs are the same and you could almost buy 2 scrolls for the price of one riffle scroll. I guess theres the benefit that silence doesnt stop it and theres no verbal component.
Situations in which it could help:
Cast in a silence zone. - allows you to cast a GTFO spell.
Cast in darkness. - Don't need to read the Riffle Scroll so you can cast something to deal with / embrace the darkness (Daylight, Darkvision, Blessings of the Mole, etc)
Cast from invisibility - Since you don't read it it won't give up your position, unless it's an attack.
Cast a spell that can't be identified at casting. - A maybe, but since there are no material/somatic components and no words being spoken...what is there to "clearly see" being cast that can be used to identify the spell.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Riffle scrolls still need to be read, just not out loud. They work great in silence. They don't work in darkness.
So far as I can tell, invisible characters can see themselves. So an invisible caster using a riffle scroll shouldn't have a problem. If you rule that invisible characters can't see themselves, then they can't cast any scrolls, including scrolls that have silenced metamagic.
I was always under the impression that you couldn't see yourself while invisible. There is nothing I can find in the rules for invisibility that suggests you can. That being said, Riffle Scrolls don't say anywhere that you are not required to read them to cast. Absent this text, you still have to read it to cast it as you would when using a normal scroll.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
I suppose you could mage hand the scroll in front of your face or drop it on the ground and go prone to read it :)
|
I may be reading this wrong, but I don't think this does what you think it does.
So you have a spell with the Silent Metamagic feat.
It does not actually raise the level of the spell, that is what Heightened spell does not silent spell. Unless of course I am reading it wrong...
It does raise the level of the spell for the purpose of the price and has the silent spell on it but does not effect that it's actual level like Heightened spell.
Unless I am reading this whole thread incorrectly and that is not what you thought it does.
Your absolutely right. It razes the caster level, not the spell level. However, some spells do benefit greater than others from a increased caster level. I think Communal Resist Energy is the best example. Off a normal scroll (CL5) you get energy resistance 10, but on a Riffle scroll (CL7) you now get energy resistance 20.
I was hoping someone knew of other spells that you have this kind of increased usefulness from a 2 cl bump.
Correct dragnmoon. The point is that higher "effective" spell level means that a higher caster level is required to create it. This allows you to buy scrolls of level 1 spells at CL 3 and so on.
Riffle scrolls still need to be read, just not out loud. They work great in silence. They don't work in darkness.
I see nothing in the text requiring the Riffle Scroll to be read.
As far as I can tell you have to:1) Decipher the scroll - Can be done well before hand when you have light.
2) Activate the spell - The riffle scroll describes that it is the motion of the pages that activates the spell.
3) Determine the effect
As far as I can tell, as long as you deciphered the Riffle Scroll ahead of time, you don't have to see the runes as you flip through the pages.
So far as I can tell, invisible characters can see themselves. So an invisible caster using a riffle scroll shouldn't have a problem. If you rule that invisible characters can't see themselves, then they can't cast any scrolls, including scrolls that have silenced metamagic.
That's the only logical way to see it. Otherwise there are a lot of other issues that get messy too.
|
except the caster level is part of the price component and since the power (or the duration) of most spells is tied to the caster level, you would see an increase in those elements as well.
Based on the described use by Varian Jeggare in the Pathfinder Tales line, he is not actually "reading" the scroll; flipping through the pages that make up the riffle scroll activate the spell. Additionally,
When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.
There is no reading involved with activation and can therefore be activated in darkness.
If it is solely the motion that activates the magic, then why do you have to be a spellcaster to use it?
|
So, looking beyond merely extending duration and range to target or raising DC to resist. *Goes through list to see if I can find anything.
There's plenty of things that just deal more damage, or more rays to do more damage. Not going to bother to list them.
Lighten object (CL 1): Situational, but lets you affect 3 cubic feet instead of 1 cubic foot.
Weapons against Evil (CL 1): 3 weapons ignore evil DR instead of just 1.
Divine Favor (CL 1): +1 luck on atk and dmg
Slow (CL 5): More targets
Haste (CL 5): More targets
Dance of a Hundred Cuts (CL 10): another +1 to lots of stuff
Sometimes the extending duration is nice on it's own. - Hideous Laughter for 3 round instead of 1 makes it a bit more worth it. I'll look into the 1round/level spells later.
Riffle scroll specifically says it follows all the rules for normal scrolls including deciphering, activating, and determining effects, therefore you have to be able to see it and read it.
|
|
I don't think that is correct..
I don't see anything in it that states that it is still not treated at minimum caster level, other then for price.
Right, but the spell being scribed needs to be scribed utilizing the Silent metamagic feat, which makes it a level higher, which requires a higher level spell caster.
Take fireball as one of the aforementioned spells. A 3rd level could craft a fireball scroll, but could not craft a fireball riffle scroll. It would require a 7th level caster to scribe the scroll (the minimum caster level for that spell), which would inflict 7d6 instead of 5d6 in damage on a failed save.
|
|
Caster Level: "..You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level..."
The spell contained in a riffle scroll must be silenced. Silent spells take a spell slot a level higher. The minimum caster level of a silent spell is that of minimum for the higher slot. Thus, the minimum CL of a riffle spell must be higher.
|
|
Riffle scroll specifically says it follows all the rules for normal scrolls including deciphering, activating, and determining effects, therefore you have to be able to see it and read it.
I've got ISM open in front of me and it states:
A riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but it's methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols. When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.
You are picking a specific statement that comes after the clarification in the difference in method of activation and only part of the section which then goes on to specify those areas that are identical.
A riffle scroll uses spell completion as its activation type, just as do normal scrolls. Characters who cannot cast the spell contained in a riffle scroll must rely on Use Magic Device to activate the magic held within. Riffle scrolls are treated exactly the same as scrolls for the purposes of deciphering the writing, activating the spell, and determining the effects (including the chances for mishaps), save for the fact that riffle scrolls do not require verbal components - they automatically function as if they were cast using the Silent Spell metamagic feat. Activating a riffle scroll provokes attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell. Magical silence does not interfere with using a riffle scroll. Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
The fact that the difference in method of activation is initially described would indicate that it takes precedence over the following statements otherwise there is no point to mentioning any difference in the first place.
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: Moved Rant to an appropriate new thread on the website feedback forum. If you feel as I do please let them know. If not....Keep your mouth shut :P
P.S. For those who didn't pick up on it. The thread was moved and I specifically wanted it where it was to begin with.
A riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but it's methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols. When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.
A riffle scroll uses spell completion as its activation type, just as do normal scrolls. Characters who cannot cast the spell contained in a riffle scroll must rely on Use Magic Device to activate the magic held within. Riffle scrolls are treated exactly the same as scrolls for the purposes of deciphering the writing, activating the spell, and determining the effects (including the chances for mishaps), save for the fact that riffle scrolls do not require verbal components - they automatically function as if they were cast using the Silent Spell metamagic feat. Activating a riffle scroll provokes attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell. Magical silence does not interfere with using a riffle scroll. Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
There is no wiggle room here. It specifically says that it is treated exactly the same as a normal scroll for activation. If it worked by simply flipping through the pages, then it wouldn't be considered a spell completion item. Anybody with thumbs can flip through a book, but only a spellcaster can use a spell completion item.
PC: "I cast Cure light wounds on myself"
DM: "Roll 50% Miss chance"
lol
|
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but it's methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols.
A riffle scroll uses spell completion as its activation type, just as do normal scrolls. Riffle scrolls are treated exactly the same as scrolls for the purposes of deciphering the writing, activating the spell, and determining the effects (including the chances for mishaps), save for the fact that riffle scrolls do not require verbal components - they automatically function as if they were cast using the Silent Spell metamagic feat. Activating a riffle scroll provokes attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell. Magical silence does not interfere with using a riffle scroll. Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
OK, let's look at the sentences preceding the parts you emphasized (I have emphasized the parts I am speaking of above). Since in initially it states the activation method is quite different, it would follow that the specifics you decided to emphasize would apply to folks needing to utilize UMD. EDIT: this arguement is further reinforced by the inclusion of the chances for mishap, which do NOT apply to PCs who can cast the spell on a scroll.
Additionally, I would also like to point out that even though it requires Scribe Scroll and Silent Spell to create, a riffle scroll is listed in the descriptive text as a wondrous item. So while those who would be able to cast the spell would be able to use it as described for the different method of activation, those who could not would need to use it as they would a scroll.
There is no wiggle room here. It specifically says that it is treated exactly the same as a normal scroll for activation. If it worked by simply flipping through the pages, then it wouldn't be considered a spell completion item. Anybody with thumbs can flip through a book, but only a spellcaster can use a spell completion item.
Except that it does also state that the method of activation is quite different than that of scrolls and that flipping through the pages is the method of activation. Additionally, by using UMD, anyone can use a spell completion item (a point emphasized by the existence of specific rules in the UMD description pertaining to scroll use). As the method of activation is written as such, I would say there is PLENTY of wiggle room, otherwise this discussion would not have continued for the duration it has.
One other point is this line from the item description:
The secretss of this magic's rediscovery and details of its use are fully detailed in the Pathfinder Tales novel Prince of Wolves.
As I remember, Varian Jeggare merely flipped the pages, he did not read the scrolls in the novels where riffle scrolls have been used.
If it works in the way you describe, then why does simply flipping through pages with your thumb require a UMD check? Obviously there is more to it than simply flipping the pages, otherwise it wouldn't require a check. There is also the matter of it specifically saying that it is treated exactly the same as a scroll for activation. Why would it say that it is treated exactly the same a scroll for activation if it isn't?
Fluff doesn't overpower rules. It never has and never will. In a home game I'd make an exception, but not in PFS.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
OK, let's look at the sentences preceding the parts you emphasized (I have emphasized the parts I am speaking of above). Since in initially it states the activation method is quite different, it would follow that the specifics you decided to emphasize would apply to folks needing to utilize UMD. EDIT: this arguement is further reinforced by the inclusion of the chances for mishap, which do NOT apply to PCs who can cast the spell on a scroll.
Additionally, I would also like to point out that even though it requires Scribe Scroll and Silent Spell to create, a riffle scroll is listed in the descriptive text as a wondrous item. So while those who would be able to cast the spell would be able to use it as described for the different method of activation, those who could not would need to use it as they would a scroll.
I did add an edit, but you did read the rest of the section of my response I included above, didn't you?
As written, if you can't cast the spell, you have to use UMD. If you have to use UMD, it is treated the same as using a scroll. Seems pretty straightforward.
Apparently all pathfinders are speed readers.
If it works in the way you describe, then why does simply flipping through pages with your thumb require a UMD check? Obviously there is more to it than simply flipping the pages, otherwise it wouldn't require a check. There is also the matter of it specifically saying that it is treated exactly the same as a scroll for activation. Why would it say that it is treated exactly the same a scroll for activation if it isn't?
Fluff doesn't overpower rules. It never has and never will. In a home game I'd make an exception, but not in PFS.
Probably because the Riffle Scroll still requires a spell caster to use it and if your not a spell caster you have to fake it.
Also...it's easier to use written rules then to write new ones for a single corner case.
|
|
Additionally, stating
A riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but it's methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols. When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.
is not fluff. It describes a mechanic.
The following paragraph then expands upon it for those who must use UMD for the item.
|
|
These items are described a lot in the Pathfinder fiction 'Prince of Wolves'.
They are described as an arcane form of flip book. When a page flips, it reveals a subtly different new arcane mark inscribed on the paper. The spellcaster sees and understands these sigils animating rapidly and the spell activates. You need to be able to see what you're doing.
But that's fiction, not rules.
Additionally, statingA riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but it's methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols. When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.is not fluff. It describes a mechanic.
The following paragraph then expands upon it for those who must use UMD for the item.
This is going nowhere and I believe we have carried on with this as long as we can. It seems the only thing at this point that will convince you is if a FAQ comes out clarifying it. To be honest though, I see no need for a clarification. In a home game, I would probably let people do what you are saying. However, I mainly play PFS and as as GM, I would be required to rule the way I stated above. It specifically says that riffle scrolls are treated the same as normal scrolls for activating the spell. It can't get any more specific than that. It does not say that you do not have to read the scroll to cast it. If it did, then I would rule that way, but it doesn't. If it didn't require reading it, then it would make absolutely no sense to have the requirement of having the spell on your spell list. Yes I am aware of the UMD skill, but that doesn't change the spell list requirement. Technically, UMD is used to treat the spell as if it is on your spell list for the purposes of the spell on the scroll, which means you are effectively a Fighter/Rogue/whatever that has that spell on your spell list temporarily. This will be the last post I make in this thread regarding this.
|
|
An FAQ would be a great thing. Hopefully it will be clarified, as I also play and run PFS tables weekly and as written, the way I am seeing this is that if you are able to cast the spell, if you flip through the pages, that MOTION activates the riffle scroll. If you have to use UMD then you treat it as you would a scroll.
|
These items are described a lot in the Pathfinder fiction 'Prince of Wolves'.
They are described as an arcane form of flip book. When a page flips, it reveals a subtly different new arcane mark inscribed on the paper. The spellcaster sees and understands these sigils animating rapidly and the spell activates. You need to be able to see what you're doing.
But that's fiction, not rules.
Varian Jeggare is the character from Dave Gross' Pathfinder Tales. Riffle scrolls also appear in Queen of Thorns and Master of Devils.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ya know, maybe if you were looking at the correct rules, you might be able to figure out how riffle scrolls work.
A riffle scroll is similar to a standard scroll, but its methods of activation and shape are quite different. A riffle scroll is a wondrous item that holds the power of a single spell. Each riffle scroll is a thin booklet, similar in shape to a chapbook (but somewhat smaller), containing 25 to 50 pages of eldritch symbols. When held between thumb and forefinger and riffled through in a quick manner, the motion of the pages turning activates the magic within, simultaneously completing casting of the spell and erasing the booklet.
A riffle scroll uses spell completion as its activation type, just as do normal scrolls. Characters who cannot cast the spell contained in a riffle scroll must rely on Use Magic Device to activate the magic held within. Riffle scrolls are treated exactly as scrolls for the purposes of deciphering the writing, activating the spell, and determining its effects (including the chances for mishaps), save for the fact that riffle scrolls do not require verbal components—they automatically function as if they were cast using the Silent Spell metamagic feat. Activating a riffle scroll provokes attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell. Magical silence does not interfere with using a riffle scroll. Activating a riffle scroll requires one free hand. A riffle scroll uses the normal casting time for the inscribed spell, even if the user or creator is of a class that has increased casting times when using metamagic effects.
This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
I see nothing in Spell Completion where it says you have to read the item. Nothing.
For a riffle scroll, the final part of the spellcasting is a gesture, which is riffling the scroll, not reading the scroll.