Probably lost ten minutes of our session last night arguing over this.
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You need the ride skill to stay in saddle, your mount needs the fly skill to avoid tumbling out of the air.
Probably lost ten minutes of our session last night arguing over this.
First, never waste ten minutes of your session arguing--that's what this forum is for.
This is a simple one. I agree with Arkwright.
The rider is not flying, the mount is.
Let's break it down. The fly skill says "You are skilled at flying, either through the use of wings or magic." Nothing there about a flying mount. The ride skill says "You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus." Flying mounts are explicitly called out in the skill description.
By the way, you don't need either skill to try and ride a flying mount. You simply much more likely to fall off if you don't have the ride skill, in which case having the fly skill (and the ability to fly) might prove useful in your survivability.
Well, this what both the GM and I thought. Thanks.
FWIW, the guy arguing the other side of the point did bring one interesting thing up .. Using the ride skill to negate damage from falling off a mount. Rules as written make it seem like that works from any height, which led to his argument that ride only applied to land based mounts.
Another question I can maybe stick in here... I thought the rules used to state that perfect maneuverability meant you could hover without making a fly check. But I can't seem to find that rule anywhere. Was that an old 3.5 thing?
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Another question I can maybe stick in here... I thought the rules used to state that perfect maneuverability meant you could hover without making a fly check. But I can't seem to find that rule anywhere. Was that an old 3.5 thing?
Sort of. 3.5 didn't have the Fly skill; maneuverability was directly associated with what you could do as far as minimum speed, rate of ascent/descent, turning, etc.. Flight maneuverability in PF is handled by a bonus to the Fly skill.
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FWIW, the guy arguing the other side of the point did bring one interesting thing up .. Using the ride skill to negate damage from falling off a mount. Rules as written make it seem like that works from any height, which led to his argument that ride only applied to land based mounts.
There are a lot of rules that assume things like medium size, humanoid characters, etc. Such rules need to be adjusted when the situation warrants it. Ride's fall from mount assumes a mount is at ground level; it doesn't mean that it negates falling damage from a flying mount who is at 300 feet or something like that. The rules assume some common sense and the need to adjudicate what isn't in the rules as an extrapolation of what's there.
And that was my response to the other player as well, but I can understand what led him to the other conclusion.
Good to know about perfect maneuverability, I've been playing that wrong with another character in a different game.
So does that mean a willow wisp or an air elemental has to make a fly check in combat to stay still, for instance?
Are 1s no longer autofail in PF? We may have house ruled that.
Also, fwiw, things like huge elementals wouldn't total over 15.
Edit: stats on a huge air elemental total +23 fly, but only +8 of that is maneuverability and they have -4 from size, so I guess 19 of it is in skills or racial bonuses somehow. Regardless, my point is maneuverability alone doesn't get you there. Can be important in polymorph scenarios.
1s and 20s only auto fail/succeed on attack rolls and saving throws. Everything else is judged solely on the modified result.
if one has a fly speed of perfect, which elementals have.. they can hover without skill checks.
if one has a fly speed of perfect, which elementals have.. they can hover without skill checks.
That was certainly the rule in 3.5; did that rule make the transition to PF, or is it simply implicit in the rocking great bonus that perfect maneuverability gives to fly?
For example, if I find some way to apply a huge Earthbind-style debuff, one that gives a -20 to Fly skills, would that keep an air elemental from hovering at will?
No, I am wrong....
I hate it when I am wrong
+8 for perfect flight, then the air elemental adds it ranks in flight which equals its hit dice usually, then subtracts its size or adds if its small, then adds its dexterity bonus.
In Pathfinder "perfect" maneuverability does exactly one thing: gives a +8 fly bonus.
It does not have 3.5's hover rule. It does not have 3.5's 'ascend at full speed' rule.
If you want those rules then make house rules for them but they are house rules. (Just like the 3.5 reach exception my group house rules back into the game.) :)
- Gauss
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if one has a fly speed of perfect, which elementals have.. they can hover without skill checks.
Do you have a citation for that? I don't see it in the Fly skill, in the UMR for flight, or as a special ability for air elementals.
There is a hover feat:
Hover
This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.
If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.
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if one has a fly speed of perfect, which elementals have.. they can hover without skill checks.Do you have a citation for that? I don't see it in the Fly skill, in the UMR for flight, or as a special ability for air elementals. (Edit: ninja'd)
There is a hover feat:
Hover
This creature can hover in place with ease and can kick up clouds of dust and debris.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: A creature with this feat can halt its movement while flying, allowing it to hover without needing to make a Fly skill check.
If a creature of size Large or larger with this feat hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must make a Fly skill check to hover and the creature does not create a cloud of debris while hovering.