Starting a new campaign soon and I'm interested in playing a Ninja with the Scout archetype with a two handed reach weapon. I know it's not optimal but seems like it'd be a lot of fun.
Stats are the same as my GM's luggage combination: 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Only core races are allowed. We're starting at level 4 and I'm really only interested in levels up to 12 since I doubt we'll get higher than that.
Other than dodge, mobility and spring attack which feats should I take? GM has asked for me not to take power attack, so that and furious focus is out.
Vanishing, shadow clone will my first two ninja tricks, anything else I should aim for?
I'd recommend Vanishing Trick and Fast Stealth as your first 2 ninja tricks.
I'd recommend stats of 16, 14, 15, 11, 12, 13. Drop your level 4 stat boost into Con to give yourself 4 more HP. You're going to be in melee, so the extra health will come in handy.
For race, you could go human because the extra feat is nice. However, since your GM cut out 2 feats you would definitely take, it's not as crucial. You might want to consider angel-blooded aasimar for the +2 Str and +2 Cha. they also gain Alter Self as a spell-like ability once per day which gives you another +2 Str bonus while the spell is in effect.
Your level 3 feat will have to be Exotic Weapon Proficiency, since ninja aren't proficient with any reach weapons. I'd recomend the naginata. It's only d8 damage, but it's got a x4 crit modifier and it stays with the ninja flavor. Dodge at level 1 is pretty much a given since your AC will be lower because of your lower Dex. If you do go human, you can take Dodge and Mobility both at level 1. you won't be able to get Spring Attack until level 6 with the Combat Trick ninja trick or 7 with a feat.
Why has the gm asked you not to take power attack? For a 2handed martial character that is a pretty key feat.
Kolokotroni wrote: Why has the gm asked you not to take power attack? For a 2handed martial character that is a pretty key feat. He has some odd ideas of things which are "overpowered". Furious focus and the slow spell being two of them which makes me scratch my head. I said I was fine with not taking it now and if I could take it later if my damage was lagging behind.
Unfortunately only core races are allowed so the Aasimar is out, Bigdaddyjug. I was thinking of going with a half elf and use their racial trait to take proficiency with a bardiche. The naginata does fit the flavor but with only one attack per round and probably never getting critical strike the x4 on crits will be rarely seen.
One idea I had was using kusarigama 2h on my charges and spring attacks then if there's a flank available go two weapon fighting with it. That's a lot of feats though and i'd have to switch away from a strength build.
Unless you want to weild a reach weapon i'd say you already have a solid weapon for 2handing in the katana. It may not be the bigest damage die, but that crit range is very nice for a strength build (though might not be as good without power attack). Id say go human katana weilder personally and use the 1st level bonus feat to get you on your way to spring attack sooner.
for scouts I like elfs two handing a elven curved blade, but without power attack kolokotroni advice is good.
I want to point out that half-elfs can also take the EWP at first level as a bonus feat. You lost 1 skills per level but gain low light vision an some defenses in your weakest saving thorw.
I've never really used a reach weapon, will it not help keep me out of AoO range? I guess I could always use a five foot step or use acrobatics to get out of AoOs once I attack the round after a charge.
I completely agree Nicos, if I'm using a feat for a weapon proficiency then the half elf is just better than a human given their racial option.
Duxx Allard wrote: I've never really used a reach weapon, will it not help keep me out of AoO range? I guess I could always use a five foot step or use acrobatics to get out of AoOs once I attack the round after a charge.
THere is also a rogue talent that make the target of your sneak attack unable to make AoO.
It would be fun to incorporate Cleaving Finish, since the likelihood of killing your first target is pretty high if you Sneak Attack it.
Unfortunately, one of the Pre-Reqs for Cleaving Finish is...
...Power Attack.
Well, while power attack is often a key feat for two handed style, it might not be an entire loss if you do not have it. The problem with the feat is that it is a serious trade off for 3/4 BAB classes of damage and ability to hit. Full BAB classes act like a 3/4 BAB class when it comes to actually hitting things with power attacks. You would hit as well as a wizard though. Because your class has a focus on sneak attack, you could find that the benefit in static damage might be outweighed in damage you would get from another successful sneak attack.
Of course, there are also a lot of feats the have power attack as a prerequisite. Does your GM wave that prerequisite?
For a reach build, combat reflexes is often a really sweet deal. If you put your 14 into Dex, then you will be able to effectively keep a couple of enemies at bay with your threatened range. You are basically an obstacle 5 squares in diameter. It might also be nice since you can combine that with the other feats you have mentioned and qualify for shadow dancer, which is a great dip for classes with sneak attack. Hide in plain sight combined with spring attack and reach? Deadly. Even if you can't get sneak attack, you are still extremely effective at keeping yourself safe and deterring enemies.
I might suggest nodochi because of the crit range or 2h a katana, but without power attack, why 2h?
Nicos wrote: for scouts I like elfs two handing a elven curved blade, but without power attack kolokotroni advice is good.
I want to point out that half-elfs can also take the EWP at first level as a bonus feat. You lost 1 skills per level but gain low light vision an some defenses in your weakest saving thorw.
Half-elves gain the profiency from an alternate racial trait.
So can humans via a alternate racial trait gives up bonus feat for the adopting races proficiencies. So Tengu gives you all swords or 3+int Asian weapons.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Nicos wrote: for scouts I like elfs two handing a elven curved blade, but without power attack kolokotroni advice is good.
I want to point out that half-elfs can also take the EWP at first level as a bonus feat. You lost 1 skills per level but gain low light vision an some defenses in your weakest saving thorw.
Half-elves gain the profiency from an alternate racial trait. yes, mmm...so? are you pointing out a problem?
Those are racial traits. The Adopted social trait gives you access to a Race trait. There is a difference.
And yes Nicos, I did have a point. Any other race would require a feat to get it and they wouldn't be able to get it until at least level 2 if they are a rogue/ninja.
Half elf (drow for dark vision), ancestral arms (nodachi), blade of mercy and threatening defender for traits.
Str: 16
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 11
Cha: 14 (+2)
1) combat expt
2)
3) imp feint
4) - (+1 dex)
5) power attack
6)
7) cornugon smash
8) -(+1 wis)
9) vital strike
Pick up a wand of lead blades and enjoy!
Jack Rift wrote: So can humans via a alternate racial trait gives up bonus feat for the adopting races proficiencies. So Tengu gives you all swords or 3+int Asian weapons. I think my DM would need a good reason why I've been trained by a Tengu, and rightfully so. Besides ninja get most of the good Asian weapons and if you're giving up the human feat for a weapon proficiency you're probably better off going half elf. Everything else they get is better than +1 skill point per level, at least in general.
Reason I'm looking at 2h is the last two characters had multiple attacks, bow and two weapon fighting respectively. I just want a break from figuring out all the attacks with all the modifiers. Plus I love the idea of a small Asian man running around with a polearm doing flips and bouncing off walls.
Iemeres, I could probably talk my DM into waiving the power attack prereqs since he's asking me not to take it. Everything you've said about reach weapons is spot on and why I want to give it a try.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Those are racial traits. The Adopted social trait gives you access to a Race trait. There is a difference.
And yes Nicos, I did have a point. Any other race would require a feat to get it and they wouldn't be able to get it until at least level 2 if they are a rogue/ninja.
Ah, I see. You are confused with he word trait (not really your fault). It is not a trait (like reactionary) it is an alternate racial trait (Not the best choice for the title).
Instead of taking skill focus the alternate racial trait allow the half-elf to take the EXP.
"Ancestral Arms Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait."
Nicos wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: Those are racial traits. The Adopted social trait gives you access to a Race trait. There is a difference.
And yes Nicos, I did have a point. Any other race would require a feat to get it and they wouldn't be able to get it until at least level 2 if they are a rogue/ninja.
Ah, I see. You are confused with he word trait (not really your fault). It is not a trait (like reactionary) it is an alternate racial trait (Not the best choice for the title).
Instead of taking skill focus the alternate racial trait allow the half-elf to take the EXP.
"Ancestral Arms Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait."
I am not the one who is confused. There are 2 ways to get proficiency with an Elven Curved Blade. A half-elf can take Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with it. Any other race would need to burn a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Your method of the human Adoptive Parentage alternate racial trait being used to select half-elves as the adoptive parents would not get them Elven Curved Blade proficiency, because half-elves do NOT have a Weapon Familiarity racial trait. If you read Adoptive Parentage, all it gives you is access to the adoptive race's Weapon Familiarity racian trait, not any other racian trait or alternative racial trait.
Adoptive Parentage said wrote: •Adoptive Parentage Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race's languages and gain that race's weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait. Emphasis mine.
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I am not the one who is confused. There are 2 ways to get proficiency with an Elven Curved Blade. A half-elf can take Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with it. Any other race would need to burn a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Your method of the human Adoptive Parentage alternate racial trait being used to select half-elves as the adoptive parents would not get them Elven Curved Blade proficiency, because half-elves do NOT have a Weapon Familiarity racial trait. If you read Adoptive Parentage, all it gives you is access to the adoptive race's Weapon Familiarity racian trait, not any other racian trait or alternative racial trait.
I do not see why are you saying this since I never advice for adoptative parentage.
Nicos wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I am not the one who is confused. There are 2 ways to get proficiency with an Elven Curved Blade. A half-elf can take Ancestral Arms to gain proficiency with it. Any other race would need to burn a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Your method of the human Adoptive Parentage alternate racial trait being used to select half-elves as the adoptive parents would not get them Elven Curved Blade proficiency, because half-elves do NOT have a Weapon Familiarity racial trait. If you read Adoptive Parentage, all it gives you is access to the adoptive race's Weapon Familiarity racian trait, not any other racian trait or alternative racial trait.
I do not see why are you saying this since I never advice for adoptative parentage. Well I guess I am confusing you with another poster, but I am not confusing the ways to get EWP with the ECB.
Edit: Yes, I see now that is was Jack Rift who claimed Adoptive Parentage would work. My bad.
The Fauchard is a pretty decent reach weapon as well.
Krodjin wrote: The Fauchard is a pretty decent reach weapon as well.
The Fauchard is amazing but it's a dero weapon and the GM said no.
Sorry about the mix up with the different types of traits. I personally was going to use the half elf alternate racial trait to get proficiency in whatever weapon I decide to go with.
Byrdology, I won't be taking power attack per DMs request and the improved feint keeps me from moving. If I was going for a pure thug build that'd be pretty darn good though.
The DM doesn't want you power attacking as a 2hw fighter? That is wrong...
Imp feint is only for when you are caught in toe to toe for a round. Or if you are having a hard time hitting something... Then you are aiming for flat footed AC and getting your SA off. In fact, I don't think it has to be a melee only action. You could toss out some ranged dmg with imp feint as well. Great for shurikens.
Byrdology wrote: The DM doesn't want you power attacking as a 2hw fighter? That is wrong...
Imp feint is only for when you are caught in toe to toe for a round. Or if you are having a hard time hitting something... Then you are aiming for flat footed AC and getting your SA off. In fact, I don't think it has to be a melee only action. You could toss out some ranged dmg with imp feint as well. Great for shurikens.
True but the whole point of the build is to use the Scout Archetype's ability to use sneak attack while moving. It'll be very rare that I won't be able to tumble 10 feet once I hit level 8, preferably I'll be using spring attack to dart into melee, hit and then run out. Won't always work but should be fun when it does.
Make a human, fighter 1/ ninja x. Your first level feats are dodge mobility and spring attack. You will get any number of reach weapons available (not to mention the nodachi!) and access to mithril breastplate so you can stay mobile without needing too much dex. Build from there and call it a day!
The scout's ability to get sneak attacks when moving over 10 feet is nice, especially when combined with spring attack. However, you'd best check with your GM about that combination. There is an errata that specifically says they CANNOT be used together. If your GM houserules that they can, then you're in business. Otherwise, the bonuses of the scout archetype may not be worth what it gives up.
Mystically Inclined wrote: The scout's ability to get sneak attacks when moving over 10 feet is nice, especially when combined with spring attack. However, you'd best check with your GM about that combination. There is an errata that specifically says they CANNOT be used together. If your GM houserules that they can, then you're in business. Otherwise, the bonuses of the scout archetype may not be worth what it gives up. Ugh, really? Yeah that defeats the whole concept. Can you point me in the direction of that errata?
Byrdology wrote: Make a human, fighter 1/ ninja x. Your first level feats are dodge mobility and spring attack. You will get any number of reach weapons available (not to mention the nodachi!) and access to mithril breastplate so you can stay mobile without needing too much dex. Build from there and call it a day! That's not a bad idea at all, though still can't take spring attack till I have a +4 BAB. Hmm...
Duxx Allard wrote: Mystically Inclined wrote: The scout's ability to get sneak attacks when moving over 10 feet is nice, especially when combined with spring attack. However, you'd best check with your GM about that combination. There is an errata that specifically says they CANNOT be used together. If your GM houserules that they can, then you're in business. Otherwise, the bonuses of the scout archetype may not be worth what it gives up. Ugh, really? Yeah that defeats the whole concept. Can you point me in the direction of that errata? Mystically inclined is wrong, I think.
You can not charge and use spring attack since they are full round action on their own, so the 4th level ability of the scout do not work with spring attack.
The 8th level ability, skirmisher, have nothing to do with spring attack or charge. If you move more than 10 feat then one attack is a sneack attack.
Take fast learner then...
Byrdology wrote: Take fast learner then... I'm not sure what Faster Learner has to do with anything.
Duxx Allard wrote: Mystically Inclined wrote: The scout's ability to get sneak attacks when moving over 10 feet is nice, especially when combined with spring attack. However, you'd best check with your GM about that combination. There is an errata that specifically says they CANNOT be used together. If your GM houserules that they can, then you're in business. Otherwise, the bonuses of the scout archetype may not be worth what it gives up. Ugh, really? Yeah that defeats the whole concept. Can you point me in the direction of that errata? The Scout ability (level 8) says:
Quote: At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. The "attack action" is a special kind of Standard Action.
Now Spring attack says:
Quote: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. Spring Attack is a full round action, and you can't take a Standard action in the same turn. The attack as part of SA is a melee attack, but it is not an "attack action".
The same logic is used to disallow Vital Strike and Charging from being used in combination with Spring Attack: FAQ entry
A few things: while I am sure that is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules as written, the question remains: does his GM know that? Duxx Allard, you did not know either when making your character concept. Unless your GM knows about this thread, then why not pretend we never mentioned this little detail?
Remember, this is a GM that thinks that power attack is over powered.I doubt he would house rule in favor of the more lenient interpretation.
Now that I have gotten the sneaky weasel points that could make this all moot out of the way, now for argument about the interpretation. While it is certainly possible to interpret the rules that way, I have doubts on the physical logistics. Real world physics obviously are somewhat estranged from the game, but what is the different between moving 20 feet forward and attacking and moving 10 feet forward, attacking, and then 10 feet back? I could see charging, since it relies upon moving with full force forward and thus it might be hard to maneuver, but the scout's sneak attack does not seem to have that same compunction. You could spend your turn just running around the opponent and it would still count for the "10 feet" clause.
lemeres wrote: A few things: while I am sure that is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules as written, the question remains: does his GM know that? Duxx Allard, you did not know either when making your character concept. Unless your GM knows about this thread, then why not pretend we never mentioned this little detail?
Remember, this is a GM that thinks that power attack is over powered.I doubt he would house rule in favor of the more lenient interpretation.
Ah, but on the other side of the coin. I would be using the no power Attack houserule as a bartering tool. The GM wants you to do a favour by not using something he feels is crazy powerful, you want to be able to use an ability that is part of the char concept and can help make up for the big loss of a 2her not having Power Atk.
On another note, our group also agrees that Power Atk is too good, we have actually houseruled it to make it less powerful but also to help ease the game away from its 'full round attacks!' mantra.
PAtk is -1 +3 as per usual, however, the additional boosts (extra -1+3)only occur if you are making a single attack in the round, so if ypu make a standard action you don't have to feel your damage is woefully inadequate.
Finally, your GM probably doesn't know that rule - most tend not to differentiate between all this 'standard action or attack action, full round action, full attack action' simply that something is either a standard action or a full round action
Hmmm...bartering tool. Interesting piece of diplomacy. I'd say that you play innocent until he notices, and then keep this trade as back up (and act shocked enough to make it believable). It gets particularly effective when the GM has to say "That thing you've been doing in every battle for the past 5 sessions? Yeah....Never happened." Retcons like that are particularly embarrassing.
Should I be worried that I am getting too Machiavellian? I feel that I am probably correct in my advice, but it seems a bit too... calculating.
Rogues/ninjas are already gimped enough. If he wants to take Power Attack away on top of that he deserves to be schemed against.
The Scout ability (level 8) says:
Quote: At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. The "attack action" is a special kind of Standard Action.
Now Spring attack says:
Quote: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn. Spring Attack is a full round action, and you can't take a Standard action in the same turn. The attack as part of SA is a melee attack, but it is not an "attack action".
The same logic is used to disallow Vital Strike and Charging from being used in combination with Spring Attack: FAQ entry You're absolutely right. I completely missed the "attack action" part of the skirmisher ability. My DM does know the difference between attacking and the attack action and how it relates to vital strike and charging. We were just talking about that the other day. Oh well, there goes that concept. While I have no issues with house rules I also like to use mechanics that are legal. *Shrugs*
It's not that he thinks power attack is over powered, but he does complain about furious focus. He thinks at the very least it should be delayed until the character has a +6 BAB. He asked, not insisted, that I not take power attack because he feels it slows down combat when a big hit occurs and he asks where all the damage came from.
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