Warslinger & Halfling Slingstaffs

[Krodjin]

Has there been a PFS ruling on whether the Warslinger alternate racial trait works with the Slingstaff?

[Hayato Ken]

The search function doesn´t bring any PFS specific ruling, at least not from this forum.

But: halfling slingstaff is just another sling and all slings are normally treated the same for the purpose of traits, racial traits and feats. A lot of Gm´s handle this wrong, i don´t know why. After all, the halfling slingstaff is the only halfling racial weapon. Don´t forget it´s already weaker than bows again since bullets are much heavier and feats wich say "arrow" don´t work on it.

If you asked me, this should even be ruled a legal alternative for halfling zen archer monks including all of the halfling sling special feats as monk feats then.

[Drogon]

I've been using this trait with a character for two years, now. I sure hope it's not illegal.

What makes you think it's not legal, by the way? And what makes you think it needs a specific "okay" from a PFS higher up? As Hayato Ken pointed out, there are far more powerful options, when it comes to ranged weapon builds.

[SCPRedMage]

Drogon wrote:

What makes you think it's not legal, by the way?

Probably something to do with it being a separate item using separate rules, without anything specifying that it does, in fact, count as a sling; it even specifically requires a separate proficiency.

Weapon Focus/Specialization (sling) would NOT apply to a halfling sling staff, so I'm at a loss as to why it WOULD count as a sling for the Warslinger alternate racial trait.

[Dragnmoon]

Drogon wrote:

I've been using this trait with a character for two years, now. I sure hope it's not illegal.

What makes you think it's not legal, by the way? And what makes you think it needs a specific "okay" from a PFS higher up? As Hayato Ken pointed out, there are far more powerful options, when it comes to ranged weapon builds.

Whether or not something is not as powerful as other things has no bearing on correct use of it.

That said some GMs may state the alternate racial trait says sling and not Slingstaff or sling like weapons.

Slingstaff may fire like a sling, it however does not state it functions just like a sling.

For example a Sling is a Simple Ranged Weapon, while a Sling staff is an Exotic Ranged Weapon.

Being proficient in one does not make you proficient in another so they should not be treated as the same to include Warslinger.

[Drogon]

Huh. I'm very surprised by how nitpicky the boards have gotten, lately. I guess I'll just chalk this up to another example of that and move on.

[BigNorseWolf]

Drogon wrote:

Huh. I'm very surprised by how nitpicky the boards have gotten, lately. I guess I'll just chalk this up to another example of that and move on.

None of us are as nitpicky as all of us.

[Hayato Ken]

Weapon Focus Shortbow doesn´t apply to a long bow either, that´s really no argument or indication.

I am pretty sure that the alterante racial traits count for that and the halfling slingstaff is treated as a sling for it, because i had that discussion last year. The answer lies actually in the halfling sling staff description.

Halfling Sling Staff

There it says it is a sling, so everything for slings is legal for it.
GM´s in PFS may not state otherwise. The rest of the description is same as the sling´s, the only difference is that it is mounted on a stick which you can use in melee as a light club, it has a greater range and does more damage.
The description also says halflings treat it as a martial weapon.
Warslinger is the same for slings, halfling sling staffs and doubleslings, because all are essentially slings.

This doesn´t need any official ruling because it´s clearly all in the text, if one bothers to read it. And no, there is nothing for GM´s to judge about it.

[Dragnmoon]

Hayato Ken wrote:

The answer lies actually in the halfling sling staff description.

Yes it does, that is why I said No...

If it did it would state that it would work like a sling,. But it does not.

Notice this line in the Sling Staff

Sling Staff wrote:

A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size.

If it was treated like a sling for all other purposes it would state the same or have a very similar line for the slinging portion. It does not.

Now if you had an ability that gave you bonuses to clubs, Sling Staff would count.

[Dragnmoon]

Drogon wrote:

Huh. I'm very surprised by how nitpicky the boards have gotten, lately. I guess I'll just chalk this up to another example of that and move on.

Not really, I always take the conservative route with rulings, that way I am not disappointed like those that take liberal rulings.

[SCPRedMage]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Weapon Focus Shortbow doesn´t apply to a long bow either, that´s really no argument or indication.

And if you had a racial trait that applied to shortbows, it wouldn't apply to a longbow. It WOULD apply to a composite shortbow, because the description of composite shortbow explicitly states that it counts as a shortbow; note that it EXPLICITLY states that, despite having "shortbow" in its name.

Quote:

There it says it is a sling, so everything for slings is legal for it.

It says it's "made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club". This is a physical description of the item. The words "count as a sling" do not appear anywhere in that text. No where, in the entire description, does the word "sling" appear, other than in the full name of the item ("halfling sling staff"), or that initial physical description.

The fact that it is described as being made from a (specially designed) sling does NOT, by RAW, inherently mean it counts as a sling, itself, unless it has language that explicitly states that it does. The intention may have been for it to count for things like Warslinger, but PFS operates off of RAW, not possible RAI.

Quote:

GM´s in PFS may not state otherwise.

Seeing as your argument is weak at best, yes, we can. GMs in PFS do have the ability to make determinations when it comes to vague, unclarified rules. Nothing here explicitly says it "counts as a sling", and your argument is that "made from a specially designed sling" means the same as "counts as a sling. Since the closest your argument gets to being true is "vague", I'd say GMs would be will within their rights to say you're wrong.

Quote:

The description also says halflings treat it as a martial weapon.

Yeah, and slings are simple weapons, so I fail to see what that has to do with anything. That's just the standard racial weapon familiarity statement.

Quote:

Warslinger is the same for slings, halfling sling staffs and doubleslings, because all are essentially slings.

Actually, double slings are a very different case.

Sling, double wrote:

You can use a double sling as a normal sling, or use the second end to make one additional ranged attack each round. You take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons when you use both ends of a double sling (as if it were a double weapon); the Two- Weapon Fighting feat reduces these penalties as normal. Reloading one end of a double sling is a move action ( just like a normal sling), so unless you have an ability or feat (such as Ammo Drop) that allows you to quickly reload a sling, you cannot normally make multiple attacks per round for several consecutive rounds with this weapon.

I would interpret "you can use a double sling as a normal sling" to mean that you can attack with a single end of a double sling entirely as if it were a sling, right down to proficiency, but if you try to attack with BOTH, you'll get slapped with the nonproficiency penalty, unless you actually have proficiency with the double sling. It also has language that specifically ties the reload action of the double sling to the reload action of the sling ("reloading one end of a double sling is a move action (just like a normal sling), so unless you have an ability or feat (such as Ammo Drop) that allows you to quickly reload a sling", etc), so Warslinger WOULD apply to the double sling, because there is language that directly ties the double sling's reload action to the sling reload action.

The halfling sling staff has no such language ANYWHERE in it.

Quote:

This doesn´t need any official ruling because it´s clearly all in the text, if one bothers to read it. And no, there is nothing for GM´s to judge about it.

Yes, it WOULD need a ruling to work as you think, and yes, there is something to judge about it.

[Mergy]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Weapon Focus Shortbow doesn´t apply to a long bow either, that´s really no argument or indication.

I am pretty sure that the alterante racial traits count for that and the halfling slingstaff is treated as a sling for it, because i had that discussion last year. The answer lies actually in the halfling sling staff description.

Halfling Sling Staff

There it says it is a sling, so everything for slings is legal for it.
GM´s in PFS may not state otherwise. The rest of the description is same as the sling´s, the only difference is that it is mounted on a stick which you can use in melee as a light club, it has a greater range and does more damage.
The description also says halflings treat it as a martial weapon.
Warslinger is the same for slings, halfling sling staffs and doubleslings, because all are essentially slings.

This doesn´t need any official ruling because it´s clearly all in the text, if one bothers to read it. And no, there is nothing for GM´s to judge about it.

GMs in PFS may certainly say otherwise. Just because they both have sling in the name does not make them both apply to the Warslinger trait. That trait only allows a halfling to reload their sling as a free action, and it doesn't apply to the slingstaff.

Whether that was intended or not is up for debate, but the rules as written are not in your favour.

[Hayato Ken]

You just read it how you want to read it, that is all.

Yes let´s have a official ruling on this please, because if i ever play with one of you as a GM i will never play a halfling and use this weapon.
That´s just ridiculous. Like wow you can actually use that in a cool way, we need to immediately forbid it and find the hair in the soup.

Sling Staff

Sling Staff wrote:

Made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club, a halfling sling staff can be used by a proficient wielder to devastating effect. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a halfling sling staff with one hand. Loading a halfling sling staff is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.

A halfling sling staff fires bullets. You can hurl ordinary stones with a halfling sling staff, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.

A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size. Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons.

Sling wrote:

Sling

A sling is little more than a leather cup attached to a pair of strings. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a sling, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a sling with one hand. Loading a sling is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.

A sling fires sling bullets. You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.

Now the boldet section is exactly identical. The differende is that you can use the sling staff as a club too, that´s why it is a martial or exotic weapon. And the sling staff especially says it is a sling attached to a club.

As a PFS GM you are not free to use artistic crap to cripple rules and players, so sorry.

[Hayato Ken]

Oh it came to my mind what might change your view on this.
Those are from halflings of Golarion:

Ammo Drop (Combat)
Your coordination is so perfect that you can simply drop
ammunition from your hand at the exact moment required
for it to fall into an open sling as your twirl it around.
Prerequisites: Sleight of Hand 1 rank, proficient with
sling.
Benefit: You can load a sling or one end of a double
sling with one hand as a swift action or move action. This
does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Juggle Load (Combat)
Your fingers are so nimble that reloading your sling is
almost effortless for you.
Prerequisites: Ammo Drop, Sleight of Hand 1 rank,
proficient with sling.
Benefit: You can load a sling or double sling as a free
action. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This
feat allows you to fire your sling as many times in a fullattack
action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

The difference between those 2 and the warslinger racial trait is, that with warslinger you don´t threaten.
Why should the rules punish someone, who gives something up (racial traits) to gain something that is similar but worse than two feats?

Or this:
Large Target (Combat)
The larger a creature is, the easier you find it to strike a
vulnerable spot when attacking with a sling.
Prerequisite: Proficient with sling.
Benefit: Your attacks with all kinds of slings add a
+1 bonus on damage rolls for every size category your
opponent is larger than you. For example, if you are
Small and your opponent Large (a difference of two sizes),
you gain a +2 damage bonus. This is considered precision
damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

It also only calls out for slings, but if you don´t count the halfling sling staff as one, you would exclude the racial weapon there? And deny all the racial feat benefits here from the racial weapon? The signature thing?

[Mergy]

This is the wrong forum to have this argument. Currently, by what the rules allow, the Warslinger alternate racial trait does not apply to the slingstaff.

I get that you don't like that, but PFS doesn't need its own set of rules to correct this. Take it to the rules forum and try to get some errata, and then it will apply to PFS.

[Hayato Ken]

So and can you please point out that rules where it specifically says that?

[Jeffrey Fox]

Hayato Ken wrote:

It also only calls out for slings, but if you don´t count the halfling sling staff as one, you would exclude the racial weapon there? And deny all the racial feat benefits here from the racial weapon? The signature thing?

I would deny it in a heart beat.

If the designer wanted it to count as a sling for feats and traits, they would have called it out like they do for composite bows.

Edit: Also just because a weapon has another weapons name in it doesn't make it that weapon. A double Pistol isn't a pistol for Rapid Reload, a bastard sword isn't the same as a short sword even though they are both swords. Sure those abilities would be nice if they applied to the sling staff but that's not the way the rules were written.

[Mergy]

Hayato Ken wrote:

So and can you please point out that rules where it specifically says that?

That's not how the Pathfinder rules are written. I could just as easily say "Show me where in the rules my character cannot wield a tree as a one-handed club". If the alternate racial trait doesn't specifically mention reloading a slingstaff as a free action, you cannot apply the trait to the weapon.

[SCPRedMage]

Hayato Ken wrote:

So and can you please point out that rules where it specifically says that?

Just as soon as you can point out where the rules say I can't fire laser beams from my eyes.

Or closer to your actual statement, show me where it says a double pistol doesn't count as a pistol.

It doesn't say it because it shouldn't have to; item A is item A, not item B, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

Yes, I get it that you think that a halfling alternate racial trait that applies to slings SHOULD apply to a halfling racial sling-like weapon, and that may even have been the intention (if it was, there is absolutely NOTHING to indicate that), but by RAW it DOESN'T.

Also, the fact that the halfling sling staff reproduces the majority of the rules about slings does NOT help your argument; in fact, I'd say it quite firmly cements that it does NOT count as a sling, because if it did, they'd simply use the MUCH shorter "as a sling" wording that the double sling uses.

As to Large Target, it explicitly uses the phrasing "all kinds of slings", so at that point I'd say that that specific feat would work with any weapon with "sling" in the name, as it clearly is referring to them as a category. Ammo Drop and Juggle Load specify that they work with a "sling or double sling"; they are referring to specific items, so they do NOT work with the halfling sling staff.

And, again, the fact that it uses the words "made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club" does NOT inherently mean it counts as a sling (or a club, for that matter; it's the text at the end that does that).

The sling staff is NOT overpowered. The Warslinger trait is NOT overpowered. The Warslinger trait working with the sling staff would NOT be overpowered. It'd even be VERY thematically appropriate. It's just that the RAW doesn't allow for it, so we can't do it in PFS.

[Dennis Baker]

SCPRedMage wrote:

It doesn't say it because it shouldn't have to; item A is item A, not item B, unless a specific rule states otherwise.

The thing is, the rules do suggest otherwise. The sling staff made from a specially designed *sling*. You can argue this doesn't mean it is a sling, but the way I see it, that is exactly what it's suggesting.

I can understand that people disagree with this, but making straw-men that involve lasers shooting from eyes proves nothing other than the fact that you don't understand or don't want to understand where people are coming from.

[Jason Wu]

There is enough wiggle room in the text, I think, that clicking on the "FAQ" button is not a bad idea.

-j

[Mergy]

I prefer to think of it as reductio ad absurdum.

Anyway, in the same way that Rapid Reload (light crossbow) doesn't apply to hand crossbows or heavy crossbows, a trait that gives you a free action reload for a sling does not apply to the sling staff. If it did apply, it would be mentioned in the ability.

Would it be overpowered if the alternate racial trait applied? Probably not; however, that doesn't change the way the rules are. Feel free to houserule it in your homegames.

[Howie23]

This thread is yet another example of why it's generally a good idea to avoid grey areas in the rules for organized play. If you rely on a liberal reading of a rule, you can be guaranteed that you will come across those who take the conservative stance on it. And when you do, it always generates a negative interaction. It really is a piece of advice that should be in the guide.

[Hayato Ken]

An official statement or ruling on this would be very welcome, since it is a rather big thing if you play a halfling.

[Mergy]

You will likely not get any such statement here. Go to the rules forums and start a thread there. Until then, Howie's advice is prudent for cases like this.

[Fromper]

Jason Wu wrote:

There is enough wiggle room in the text, I think, that clicking on the "FAQ" button is not a bad idea.

-j

And yet so few people have actually done so.

[Hayato Ken]

Since in the free world this can always be discussed between Gm´s and players, or by some autocratic Gm´s just be ruled over the players, it doesn´t really matter there. Here in PFS it´s a different thing and leaving stuff like this to "table variation" isn´t a good idea in my eyes.

Halfling sling staffs are really something iconic and also a big fluffy part if you play a halfling.

[Furious Kender]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Since in the free world this can always be discussed between Gm´s and players, or by some autocratic Gm´s just be ruled over the players, it doesn´t really matter there. Here in PFS it´s a different thing and leaving stuff like this to "table variation" isn´t a good idea in my eyes.

Halfling sling staffs are really something iconic and also a big fluffy part if you play a halfling.

And thus it should work. Otherwise quite literally the exotic weapon is worse than the simple weapon once you get multiple attacks.

[Mergy]

Furious Kender wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Since in the free world this can always be discussed between Gm´s and players, or by some autocratic Gm´s just be ruled over the players, it doesn´t really matter there. Here in PFS it´s a different thing and leaving stuff like this to "table variation" isn´t a good idea in my eyes.

Halfling sling staffs are really something iconic and also a big fluffy part if you play a halfling.

And thus it should work. Otherwise quite literally the exotic weapon is worse than the simple weapon once you get multiple attacks.

First off, the sling staff is only worse than the sling if the character has the Warslinger alternate racial trait.

Secondly, it's not Pathfinder Society's job to fix this. Take it to the rules forum and create a thread for it. Perhaps there will be a clarification or errata in your favour.

I understand frustration at certain weapons being inferior to others. I can also see the thought process behind why a sling staff should benefit from Warslinger. However, it really doesn't. Arguing that PFS should make a society-only rule to change that is not going to work.

[Hayato Ken]

Done

[Poit]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

So and can you please point out that rules where it specifically says that?

That's not how the Pathfinder rules are written. I could just as easily say "Show me where in the rules my character cannot wield a tree as a one-handed club".

Assuming you're medium, a one-handed weapon for you is size small, so if the tree in question is small, you can wield it one-handed. If we assume a tree is large, then you would need to be huge to wield the tree one-handed.

As for turning the tree into a club, that's simple. Because of the quirky way the Craft skill works, creating a club is a DC 12 Craft check that takes an infinitely small amount of time, because if you make that check, the (skill check result * DC) will be infinite times larger than the target number of 0 (the cost of a club). An "infinitely small amount of time" sounds like it would be well-modeled as a free action.

So, assuming you're huge and can make a DC 12 Craft check, you can wield a large tree as a one-handed club.

Clearly this is tongue-in-cheek, but I think it's all correct by the rules.

[Zeuticus]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

GMs in PFS may certainly say otherwise. Just because they both have sling in the name does not make them both apply to the Warslinger trait. That trait only allows a halfling to reload their sling as a free action, and it doesn't apply to the slingstaff.

Whether that was intended or not is up for debate, but the rules as written are not in your favour.

I don't think this is a matter of RAW applying and RAI being irrelevant. In this case the rule is poorly written and ambiguous. There is no clear ruling so we need interpret to rules that they make sense and make the game most fun.

Some people want to believe that "a sling" only applies to the specific weapon: Sling.
Others want to apply it literally to all loadable slings.

Neither side is right until a hard ruling comes down from the rules publisher. Until then it's up to each individual GM and I think the vast majority of GMs would rule that it's fine to apply the Warslinger trait to Halfling staffslings.

In my case I'll keep a staffsling and a composite longbow on my Halfling paladin and use the bow if a GM doesn't want to allow the free reloads. Unless I'm smiting I'm not doing much damage, so it's not like it really matters in the big picture. If an official ruling favored the staffsling then I might invest in some weapon feats and purchase an enhanced staffsling.

[Rory]

Is there any way to free action load a halfling slingstaff via PFS abided rules that all GMs agree on??

All the traits and feats I've seen only apply to "slings". Too many people read that as a literal interpretation of a single weapon instead of treating it the same as if someone said "bow" and having it apply to every bow out there.

Example:

***
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
***

You'll notice, manyshot applies to a "bow" or a "composite bow". It does not say it applies to a "shortbow" or a "composite shortbow".

And...

***
Warslinger: Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. This racial trait replaces the sure-footed racial trait.
***

The racial trait applies to "sling". That to me can be interpreted as the singular weapon sling or to all slings in the generic sense similar to how Manyshot refers to "bow" and applies to all bows.

Since the precedence is set in Manyshot, until there is an official ruling, I'll be allowing halfling slingers to use the slingstaff in conjunction with Warslinger in my PFS games.

This is worthy of hitting the FAQ button in my opinion.

[SCPRedMage]

Rory wrote:

Is there any way to free action load a halfling slingstaff via PFS abided rules that all GMs agree on??

To my knowledge, no, because there is no such option that mentions the halfling slingstaff specifically, and nothing that states the slingstaff counts as a staff.

Rory wrote:

You'll notice, manyshot applies to a "bow" or a "composite bow". It does not say it applies to a "shortbow" or a "composite shortbow".

There is no item named "bow", so the term cannot possibly refer to a specific item, and thus MUST refer to a category.

Meanwhile, there IS an item named "sling", thus "slings" refers to specific instances of this item.

You'll note that the "double sling" uses language that states it functions "as a sling", and that you load it as a move action, "like a sling", tying it's reload action to the reload action of a standard sling.

The slingstaff is a distinct item separate from a sling, and without any language to link the two, like the double sling has, the two are unrelated from a rules standpoint. Any rule that applies to a sling does NOT apply to a slingstaff unless it specifically says so, by RAW.

There is no rule in Pathfinder that states that just because item A's name has item B's name in it, item A counts as item B. If that were the case, then the descriptions of composite bows wouldn't explicitly state that they count as the non-composite versions.

EDIT: You'll also note that the very first sentence of Warslinger uses the words "the sling", indicating a reference to a specific item, not a class of items.

[Furious Kender]

This is one of my pet peeves about pfs. The rules aren't clear and people rules lawyer them.

A friend of mine got a halfling warslinger to level 4 and was told his fairly weak build was illegal. He just quit.

[Rory]

SCPRedMage wrote:

There is no item named "bow", so the term cannot possibly refer to a specific item, and thus MUST refer to a category.

Meanwhile, there IS an item named "sling", thus "slings" refers to specific instances of this item.

This is the one interpretation I mentioned.

It does not preclude the other interpretation that "sling" is also being used as a category term similar to the usage of "bow".

Does it make sense that all slings other than the base sling are the only weapons that can't be fired/used faster thru some trait/feat?

[trollbill]

Furious Kender wrote:

This is one of my pet peeves about pfs. The rules aren't clear and people rules lawyer them.

A friend of mine got a halfling warslinger to level 4 and was told his fairly weak build was illegal. He just quit.

I didn't quit but I stopped playing my first PFS character, a 3rd level halfling ranger, because of this.

[Roac]

Furious Kender wrote:

This is one of my pet peeves about pfs. The rules aren't clear and people rules lawyer them.

A friend of mine got a halfling warslinger to level 4 and was told his fairly weak build was illegal. He just quit.

That isn't a bug of PFS. Of course the rules could be clearer, but then again that could also be applied to every game system and OP structure. The official PFS rules can only do so much. After that the players/GMs have to take a certain amount of responsibility not to behave like jerks. And yes that does include the rules-lawyers.

[Fromper]

More people need to flag the original post for FAQ treatment, and hopefully, we'll get an FAQ that allows this, even though the RAW seems to be against it.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

The FAQ will not happen from the PFS boards. The question will need to be created on the Rules Forums and FAQ'd there.

Additionally, this obviously seems to be an issue with Pathfinder developers trying to create "key words" and then simply not defining or using them correctly in future supplements.

In my mind, a sling staff is a sling, and as such the trait and any sling feats would work with it.

[SCPRedMage]

Andrew Christian wrote:

In my mind, a sling staff is a sling, and as such the trait and any sling feats would work with it.

And in my mind "sling" refers to a specific item (as indicated by that very first sentence of warslinger stating "the sling"), which would make that a house rule. One I'd allow at my Runelords game, but couldn't allow at my PFS table.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

In my mind, a sling staff is a sling, and as such the trait and any sling feats would work with it.

And in my mind "sling" refers to a specific item (as indicated by that very first sentence of warslinger stating "the sling"), which would make that a house rule. One I'd allow at my Runelords game, but couldn't allow at my PFS table.

I fully understand the need to be strict with RAW with PFS. Really I do.

I get called out on these boards a ton for the hard-line stance I type on these boards.

The reason I often take a hard-line stance on these boards, is because I feel it is my duty to give the most conservative view of things, especially with character legality, so that a player doesn't have table variation on whether their entire character is legal or not.

There are also obvious things that can break the game if the "creative" ambiguity of a rule is ruled loosely.

But in this instance, I really don't see a halfling slingstaff as something that will break the game because you can load it as a free action.

I have a character in my Kingmaker home campaign who has a halfling rogue with a slingstaff and the ability to load it as a free action. He is far from broken.

So, because the rule is a bit ambiguous, you have the authority to make a ruling in the player's favor. If it isn't hurting anything, why wouldn't you?

[thejeff]

OTOH, the description of the Halfling sling staff is literally "a specially designed sling attached to a short club".

It's a sling on a stick.

More importantly, the question was raised on the Rules forums and marked "Answered in the FAQ", but I'm not sure where.

[Jiggy]

The design team sometimes marks an item as "Answered in FAQ" to clear it from the queue, either because it's not clear what question they're supposed to answer, or because the answer is already stated in the rules and people just aren't accepting it, or because there are multiple questions and they can't answer them all yet. Try making a fresh thread with a single, clear, concise question that really gets at the heart of the issue. You might have better luck.

[SCPRedMage]

Andrew Christian wrote:

So, because the rule is a bit ambiguous, you have the authority to make a ruling in the player's favor. If it isn't hurting anything, why wouldn't you?

I agree that it "isn't hurting anything" (I even specifically told the halfling archealogist in my Runelords game I'd allow it), but "isn't hurting anything" isn't a determining factor for the rules, as far as RAW goes. Heck, allowing the Polearm Master's Polearm Training to count as Weapon Training (polearms) for the purposes of things like the Gloves of Dueling is far from "hurting anything", seeing as it literally does the exact same thing as the feature it replaces (minus the choice of what to apply it to), but in PFS it simply doesn't. Different name, no rules stating it counts, so it doesn't.

The point is that in PFS, we are supposed to hold ourselves to a stricter standard of rules interpretation: rules as written. Our interpretations of ambiguous rules are supposed to reflect an honest interpretation of what the rules actually say, not what we think "isn't hurting anything". Choosing to loosen up a rule here or there because it "isn't hurting anything" is an integrity issue. I cannot in good conscience disallow one RAW-bending character option and allow another, simply because I think one of them "isn't hurting anything".

And for the record, I allow warslinger to work with the halfling slingstaff in my home games not because I think the rules are ambiguous (I think they quite clearly state that it works with "the sling", not "slings as a general category to be as inclusive as you can get away with"), but because of the racial fluff surrounding both the the racial trait and the racial weapon.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

and what I'm saying is, that it is ambiguous that slingstaff and sling are still both slings and "the sling" as noted in the prestige class, trait, feat, et. al. can refer to both a sling and a slingstaff.

I don't agree that RAW is clear on this.

So the fact that a bonafide "conservative hard-liner" can sit there and disagree with you on what RAW is saying, shows that there has to be some ambiguity.

As such, being that there is ambiguity, you, as a GM, have the authority to rule in the player's favor. Why wouldn't you?

The weapon training vs. polearm training is not the same thing.

[SCPRedMage]

What I'm saying is that I think you're reading ambiguity that isn't there. Sling is sling, halfling slingstaff is halfling slingstaff. That anyone, no matter how "conservative" they claim to be, would argue otherwise does NOT change the words on the paper. As it is written, warslinger changes the reload action of the sling, and anything that explicitly states you reload it "as a sling"; if the design team wanted it to work with the slingstaff, they worded the trait incorrectly, and it needs errata.

Sling is a defined game term, as it is the name of a specific item. Anything related to that game term must define that relation; the double sling does, as it says you reload it "as a sling". Hafling slingstaff does no such thing (and instead independently defines its reload action), so it is not mechanically related to the sling. If it were, it would use the same wording that the double-sling uses to establish that relation.

There is nothing, ANYWHERE, that establishes "slings" as a name of a weapon category; that is something invented whole-cloth for exactly this argument. The "bows" argument used earlier in the thread fails in that "bow" is never established as a specific item.

The entire point of my last post was that I don't think whether or not it's "in the player's favor" is a valid basis of ANY ruling in PFS. We are required to run RAW, and "in the player's favor" is not RAW. You keep asking this "why wouldn't you?" question, and were already given the answer: because it's irrelevant to the rules.

I don't think PFS GMs should be basing their rulings on whether "it's not hurting anything", or it's "in the player's favor"; these things are highly subjective, and shouldn't be used as any basis for a table ruling in an organized campaign. The way I see it, I have no right to determine what is or is not "hurting anything", and ruling such things "in the player's favor" is not fair to other players when I don't rule in their favor on other quote-unquote "ambiguous" things.

In other words, I shouldn't automatically rule in favor of the player just because something is "ambiguous"; I should read the rules, and determine what I think they ACTUALLY mean.

And the "polearm training vs. weapon training" thing wasn't intended to state that there's some ambiguity there; I chose that example because there was absolutely NO ambiguity. It was intended to illustrate how "it isn't hurting anything" is irrelevant to the rules. Polearm training is functionally identical to Weapon training (polearms), and it replaces weapon training, so allowing the Gloves of Dueling to apply to its bonus quite clearly does NOT "hurt anything", but we STILL can't allow that in PFS, even though it's "in the player's favor".

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

My "it isn't hurting anything" is based on there being ambiguity.

I agree, if there is no ambiguity, then "it isn't hurting anything" is not a valid argument.

That being said.

PRD: Equipment wrote:

Sling Staff, Halfling: Made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club, a halfling sling staff can be used by a proficient wielder to devastating effect. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a halfling sling staff with one hand. Loading a halfling sling staff is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can hurl ordinary stones with a halfling sling staff, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.
A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size. Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons.

I decided to look up what the exact wording of a sling staff was. Based on my highlighted text above, I’d say RAW, there is no ambiguity. You are correct about that.

But the lack of ambiguity indicates it is actually a sling and all feats, prestige classes, et. al. that indicate “sling” should work with a sling staff. RAW.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

The precedent is that a Bastard Sword counts as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of feats and such, even if you only have a martial weapon proficiency for it and can only use it in two hands.

[Fromper]

SCPREedMage, I agree that you're probably right about the RAW ruling here, but I disagree with you that there's no ambiguity. The fact that the threads on this stuff have generated so many posts from people who know where to look and how to read the rules (as opposed to total newbies asking the same questions over and over, which happens for a lot of other things) proves that there definitely is some ambiguity. Which is why I'd like to get an official FAQ ruling, just to clear it up once and for all.