I like to tweek my mobs. change feats, treat them like creatures that actually want to live rather than be speed bumps.
I will sometime swap out monster feats.. for example winter wolves that live in a deep forest where everything off of the trail is hindering terain may all swap improved initiative for woodland stride. or something to that effect.
its not scientific. I dont spend hours balancing the value of the feat they lose for the one they gain. I just do what makes sence or makes the encounter more entertaining (in my opinion)
I have a player that considers this fun and entertaining. monsters are more unique and encounters less predictable.
I have another player that considers this annoying and cheap. monsters have stats because thats the way they are supposed to be. change a winter wolfs stats its not a winter wolf any more, mod the game and your not playing pathfinder your playing some other game.
just wondering how other people felt about this kind of activity.
I'm right there with you. I am of the opinion that to my character, a creature is what my character interacts with, not a rigid stat block. The CRB is rife with references to DM flexibility. Pathfinder Society play aside, to protest this is to protest the very heart of the game itself.
The one caveat I strive to employ, however, is Rule 0. Keep it fun. No one likes to feel hunted.
I do this as well and have never had a single complaint from a player.
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GMs can modify monsters, make them up, do whatever they want to them. Change out their feats all you want, especially if the monster is intelligent and could in theory select their own (I'd be less likely to alter an animal's feat selection, for example). You can also reskin a monster - e.g. make a big hairy white baboon creature that happens to use a troll's stats. If I give a creature entirely new abilities, (your example of woodland stride, for example - woodland stride isn't normally a feat choice), players rolling knowledge checks should be able to pick up on that - possibly with the higher DC for a rare monster.
It would bother my OCD to remove a feat to add a special ability, but honestly the only one who gets to know the full statblocks of your monsters is you. If it makes an entertaining encounter do what you feel is best. It sounds to me like your one player is upset that he can't metagame monster stats - tell him to put ranks in knowledge skills and then he can know stuff in character as appropriate.
i have no problems swapping feats or gear on a monster, and have no problems swapping a monster's racial spellcasting progression with a different spellcasting class with a similar progression or swapping spell like abilities for spells of equivalent level.
for example a nymph who swaps out 7 levels of druid casting for 7 levels of sorcerer casting i am fine with. though because sorcerer casting isn't as powerful as druid casting, i would give said nymph the bloodline powers and bloodline spells of a 7th level sorcerer. i wouldn't grant a monster the benefits of cleric or wizard levels, but oracle and sorcerer, i am fine with.
customizing monsters is fine, something I expect from good GM's really. The only reason I can see it being annoying is either it being a change that makes no sense or a player that wants to know what the monster can do before his character does.
Most of the time I do not really have to adjust monsters though I just change the way how players expect them to play.. which usually means they do not straight up charge and duke it out blow by blow. Use the monsters innate strengths in an unsuspected way is equally fun.
I'm actually guilty of doing the opposite if I feel like making an encounter harder.
These random bandits my players are going to mow down in 5 minutes may indeed have a pressing need of "Skill Focus: Profession Banditry" but the players don't know what their stat blocks are and they'd give a much better account of themselves in their last few moments before dying if they had Power Attack or something instead.
i have no problems swapping feats or gear on a monster, and have no problems swapping a monster's racial spellcasting progression with a different spellcasting class with a similar progression or swapping spell like abilities for spells of equivalent level.
for example a nymph who swaps out 7 levels of druid casting for 7 levels of sorcerer casting i am fine with. though because sorcerer casting isn't as powerful as druid casting, i would give said nymph the bloodline powers and bloodline spells of a 7th level sorcerer. i wouldn't grant a monster the benefits of cleric or wizard levels, but oracle and sorcerer, i am fine with.
In the case of the nymph it is a bit cheesy, sorcerer spells are at least as powerful as a druid's and the fact that a nymph has charisma 25 seems a bit powerful for their CR (compared to wisdom 17) that is +4/+3 DC on spells and an extra spell for every level capable of casting.
A nymph is already quite powerful for a CR 7, and adding bloodline powers too.. I'm not so sure I find that a fair trade.
i have no problems swapping feats or gear on a monster, and have no problems swapping a monster's racial spellcasting progression with a different spellcasting class with a similar progression or swapping spell like abilities for spells of equivalent level.
for example a nymph who swaps out 7 levels of druid casting for 7 levels of sorcerer casting i am fine with. though because sorcerer casting isn't as powerful as druid casting, i would give said nymph the bloodline powers and bloodline spells of a 7th level sorcerer. i wouldn't grant a monster the benefits of cleric or wizard levels, but oracle and sorcerer, i am fine with.
In the case of the nymph it is a bit cheesy, sorcerer spells are at least as powerful as a druid's and the fact that a nymph has charisma 25 seems a bit powerful for their CR (compared to wisdom 17) that is +4/+3 DC on spells and an extra spell for every level capable of casting.
A nymph is already quite powerful for a CR 7, and adding bloodline powers too.. I'm not so sure I find that a fair trade.
the nymph gives up 4th level spells, and the versatility of preparing. as well as the ability to simply heal herself or use healing wands. it however makes the nymph a nastier DC based debuffer if done right. the sorcerer nymph also has the downside of being more predictable than her druidic counterpart. it is still within the CR 7 range. nastier DCs, but less versatility. think of the nymph in question, not as your typical nymph, but as a standard issue 7th level sorcerer twinked for casting.
I fully support swapping out feats as the story or logic demands it. In fact, I got a lot of mileage out of a glabrezu demon (type III) encounter by swapping out two feats for another two.
The two feats to go were Cleave and Great Cleave, which are not as much fun since the conversion from 3.5 to Pathfinder, and were probably left there as part of the cut/paste conversion process. Also, Cleave does not combine with Vital Strike, another of the glabrezu's feats. (In retrospect I could have swapped only Great Cleave out for Finishing Cleave to keep some of the 3.x flavour.)
Instead of Cleave and Great Cleave, the glabrezu got Quickened Spell-Like Ability (Mirror Image) and Empowered Spell-Like Ability (Dispel Magic). My players' characters were not happy campers! :) (Although in retrospect, I'm not 100 percent sure that Dispel Magic can be Empowered.)
On the other hand, swapping a feat for a class ability like Woodland Stride sounds potentially unbalancing, as does giving the high-Cha monster Sorcerer levels instead of Druid levels. For one thing, a feat should only be replaced by a feat. In the case of the nymph sorcerer, I would definitely increase the CR amount. (As for not being able to heal herself, remember that Sorcerers get - the Cha-based - Use Magic Device skill and CLW wands are not that expensive.)
If the monster in question is getting some "freebie" special attacks or other qualities (such as Woodland Stride), then a suitable Knowledge check by the party should indeed reveal this difference.
A nymph mystic theurge is the best of both worlds...
I'm all for customizing monster feats/tactics/gear or adding a few class levels. Much more flavourful, more verisimilitude and less player security in knowing monsters in and out. Also it's boring if you have several monsters and all are identical. Imagine every PCfighter would be exactly Valeros...
I haven't run a pathfinder module yet, but I ran quite a few 3.5 modules. I was always surprised how poorly prepared many of the bosses and sub-bosses were. I habitually rebuilt them, selecting feats, spells, and migic items I felt were more appropriate. Often times the effect was that the combat was extended a bit, but the party still stomps all over them, as they all recognize it as a boss and all focus everything they have on it.
But some big baddies are bad enough as it, and should not be streamlined.
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Easiest way to give any monster levels in a PrC is to change the feats/skills.
Gives them a unique flair IMHO.
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I have another player that considers this annoying and cheap. monsters have stats because thats the way they are supposed to be. change a winter wolfs stats its not a winter wolf any more, mod the game and your not playing pathfinder your playing some other game.
Tell him to man up and learn to play, or you'll advance the winter wolves HD rather than just swap a feat.
Everytime I see a pointless feat in a monster stat block, I replace it with Toughness.
All my flying monsters get fly-by attack.
And if I can, Fly-by attack with Vital Strike.
I thought this was one of the ways monsters get "reskinned" and thus not only acceptable but common practice? Anyway its something I do, and for the same reason you do B/T Lupus: it makes sense.
The humble winter wolf is a perfect example. other than breathing cold stuff, they're mortal wolves. Wolves of all kinds in real life are supposed to be endurance hunters with a range of 40 miles in a day in some regions. It would make sense then to perhaps swap out their feat for Endurance or something. If you had a fey that you wanted to live in a more urban environment (like a tinker sprite instead of the typical woodland variety), why in the name of the First World couldn't you swap out Mending for Dancing Lights or give it a Craft skill focus or whatever; why would it need to be on alert ALL the time?
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I'd be extremely leery of swapping a noncombat feat for a combat feat, especially one that fits too well. You don't want to break the CR system and something like the flyby/vital strike combo in place of a couple throw away feats probably would.
the fact that monsters have throwaway noncombat feats makes them too weak.
now, if the nymph had racial sorcerer casting (instead of druid casting) and a lot of monsters gave up noncombat feats for better combat feats. the CR system might mean something.
i personally would swap skill focus (basketweaving) for toughness any day. i would also reccomend diverting more of a monster's unused treasure into gear they can actually use, or weapons they can actually benefit from.
collossal humanoids with longspears and combat reflexes, hell yeah!
Alright Lumi...simmer down now. I usually swap for a theme. In the case of my variant sprites for example, I swapped 1/1 spells at the same level and generally utility spells for other utility spells and so on. A tinker sprite is good at fixing or breaking a victim's gear; a Graveborn on the other hand has a fatiguing attack instead of a daze and a way to get close w/out you noticing (vanish).
The point is that yes, certain combos are deadly and may overpower the monster however on the other hand you shouldn't intentionally gimp an enemy just to preserve some precious CR chart.
Alright Lumi...simmer down now. I usually swap for a theme. In the case of my variant sprites for example, I swapped 1/1 spells at the same level and generally utility spells for other utility spells and so on. A tinker sprite is good at fixing or breaking a victim's gear; a Graveborn on the other hand has a fatiguing attack instead of a daze and a way to get close w/out you noticing (vanish).
The point is that yes, certain combos are deadly and may overpower the monster however on the other hand you shouldn't intentionally gimp an enemy just to preserve some precious CR chart.
The thing is, most monsters have Skill Focus (Perception) or Alertness in their list of feats, which is a serious thorn in the Rogue's side by making non-magical scouting even more deadly. As a GM, I prefer making my encounters more challenging but also more easy to circumvent.
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I'd be extremely leery of swapping a noncombat feat for a combat feat, especially one that fits too well. You don't want to break the CR system and something like the flyby/vital strike combo in place of a couple throw away feats probably would.the fact that monsters have throwaway noncombat feats makes them too weak.
now, if the nymph had racial sorcerer casting (instead of druid casting) and a lot of monsters gave up noncombat feats for better combat feats. the CR system might mean something.
i personally would swap skill focus (basketweaving) for toughness any day. i would also reccomend diverting more of a monster's unused treasure into gear they can actually use, or weapons they can actually benefit from.
collossal humanoids with longspears and combat reflexes, hell yeah!
This. The CR system was designed to provide challenges for non-optimized PCs. I GM for a group of optimizers, so if I don't change up feats to make monsters more dangerous then they aren't an appropriate challenge for the CR.
This. The CR system was designed to provide challenges for non-optimized PCs. I GM for a group of optimizers, so if I don't change up feats to make monsters more dangerous then they aren't an appropriate challenge for the CR.I'd be extremely leery of swapping a noncombat feat for a combat feat, especially one that fits too well. You don't want to break the CR system and something like the flyby/vital strike combo in place of a couple throw away feats probably would.the fact that monsters have throwaway noncombat feats makes them too weak.
now, if the nymph had racial sorcerer casting (instead of druid casting) and a lot of monsters gave up noncombat feats for better combat feats. the CR system might mean something.
i personally would swap skill focus (basketweaving) for toughness any day. i would also reccomend diverting more of a monster's unused treasure into gear they can actually use, or weapons they can actually benefit from.
collossal humanoids with longspears and combat reflexes, hell yeah!
the CR system is irrelevant except as a guideline. it isn't exact, and while a PC can take on drastically different challenges better, they are worse at certain others.
for example, a melee build is weaker against fliers, but stronger against giants, including oni. while an archer is stronger against fliers and easier to hit large targets, but weaker against smaller targets that hide more easily.
So lets start another thread with everyone's fave swaps and re-skins! I suggest this for selfish reasons; I SUCK at it and have only succesfully reskinned a kobold, brownie and 2 sprites over the past 3 homebrew campaigns. By "successfuly" I mean my reskinning actually challenged the players to use better tactics and was memorable.
So lets start another thread with everyone's fave swaps and re-skins! I suggest this for selfish reasons; I SUCK at it and have only succesfully reskinned a kobold, brownie and 2 sprites over the past 3 homebrew campaigns. By "successfuly" I mean my reskinning actually challenged the players to use better tactics and was memorable.
So.. what did you do with those ?
Brownie reskinned to Muddler:
added alchemy to a create water to have them create wet mud with either Tanglfoot Bag ability or Itchy; Fort save DC 12 or Fatigued unless a full round action to remove.
Kobold to Black Dragon kobolds:
These had Crafty swapped for either a body part of their patron (wings, a combat tail, horns), the mite Doom ability to simulate a fear effect, or breathing underwater. Feats swapped to marry up with swap. Examples included amphibious blowgunners with Deadly Aim; tail whippers with Improved Trip and the only ones that affected the party: Horned Ones with a Bull Rush.
I dropped 2 Horned Ones, a pit trap and advanced them with a level of Barbarian. The kobolds rushed the party, one hit and headbutted the paladin into the pit trap, sending her into negatives.
Sprites to Springdrench and Graveborn:
Here is the thread I posted them in. I did these recently and had the Graveborn mark one of the PCs then duck behind some gravestones to hide. The area then got drenched providing the distraction for the marked PC to be hit from behind with Touch of Fatigue. The PC is a mage so the Graveborn stuck to him like glue to duel him while the other PCs got blinded by a fog and then one of them got knocked over by a hydraulic push.
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I love tweaking monster stats here and there if it makes good sense. I consider it a part of the game and the fun of being GM. The players that even guess I do this think it’s great and keeps everything fresh. I even have a 1-page PDF from Super Genius called 10 Monster Feats taped to the inside back cover of all my Bestiaries.