Scizore: was the damage errata'ed?

[JiCi]

Ok, 1d10 points of damage for a martial weapon is questionable, because it's one die above the "standard" damage cap for the other one-handed martial weapons.

I'm sorry, but losing the AC bonus when attacking, a -1 penalty to attack rolls and not being able to use your hand while using it doesn't counter the high damage cap. The AC bonus counters the fact to you lose it when attacking and the +10 bonus to CMD to resist being disarmed counters the attack roll penalty. Not having a free hand is neutral because... it applies to every weapon.

So, was the damage errata'ed to 1d8?

[Selgard]

Check the errata for whatever book the weapon appears in.
(never heard of it myself, so I couldn't check).

-S

[hogarth]

JiCi wrote:

Ok, 1d10 points of damage for a martial weapon is questionable, because it's one die above the "standard" damage cap for the other one-handed martial weapons.

I'm sorry, but losing the AC bonus when attacking, a -1 penalty to attack rolls and not being able to use your hand while using it doesn't counter the high damage cap.

As far as I'm concerned, a 1d10 weapon with an automatic -1 penalty to attacks is not any more powerful than a 1d8 weapon with no penalty.

You might also be surprised to note that are also a number of two-handed simple weapons that do 2d6 damage, which is presumably above the "damage cap" for simple two-handed weapons.

Spoiler:

I'm talking about a Large morningstar or heavy mace. Of course, there's a -2 penalty to attacks, but since we're ignoring penalties... :-)

[Joanna Swiftblade]

If it was really that big a deal, there would be more posts about it. D10 damage isn't that big a deal because it's crit multiplier is only x2.

If you had a longsword, and +10 to damage, your DPR would look likes this(assuming you make 20 attacks, roll average damage, and miss on a 1)

14.5x21 (17 normal hits, 2 crits) = 304.5/20

Lets look at scizore with same circumstances, but this time you miss on a 2 as well because of the -1 to hit.

15.5x19 (17 normal hits, 1 crit) = 294.5

Even if you hit on the 2, your damage would BARELY be above that of a longsword, at 310 over 20 attacks.

A long sword is better in most cases, so long as your +dmg is strong. This difference only increases with the addition of keen / improved critical. Also, you can not add 1.5x your str modifier to a scizore, as it is strapped to a single arm (no official rule, but I sure as hell wouldn't allow it).

[Coriat]

Scizore has not been erratad for less damage.

And speaking game-mechanically, I would use a 1d8 (average 4.5) weapon before I used a 1d10 weapon (average 5.5) with a -1 to hit. If I want to trade attack bonus for damage, Power Attack offers a more favorable ratio.

Plus, with 1d8 I could get 19-20x2 or 20x3 rather than 20x2.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A bonus (or penalty) to hit is worth double that amount in damage, in general. This weapon gets an average of +1 damage (d8 vs. d10) for -1 to hit. That's a bad trade. And as Coriat said, it has inferior crit range to d8 martial weapons, too.

It's actually a really horrible weapon, the only reason I'd ever consider using it at all would be purely for fluff -- to recreate the "Scissorman" killer from the Clock Tower videogame horror series.

[mplindustries]

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

[JiCi]

mplindustries wrote:

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

Masterwork, problem solved...

[kyrt-ryder]

problem NOT solved. It's still a -1 to hit compared to a masterworked weapon.

Compare the scizore to a Heavy Spiked Shield. As weapons, the two are exactly equal (average 3.5 damage vs average 5.5 with a -1 to hit.) That's before you compare them as shields, and realize that the Heavy Spiked Shield is a superior piece of equipment.

[Gorbacz]

JiCi wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

Masterwork, problem solved...

I have money to spend on a masterwork weapon. Difficult math question: do I want a weapon that will make me hit at +5 for 1d10/x2 damage or one that will make me hit at +6 for 1d8/x3 or 1d8/x2 at 19-20 damage?

[JiCi]

Gorbacz wrote:

JiCi wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

Masterwork, problem solved...

I have money to spend on a masterwork weapon. Difficult math question: do I want a weapon that will make me hit at +5 for 1d10/x2 damage or one that will make me hit at +6 for 1d8/x3 or 1d8/x2 at 19-20 damage?

The scizore is almost un-disarmable and counts also as a shield. The masterwork bonus to attack rolls counters the penalty to hit, and I'm pretty sure that any feat that allows you to keep a buckler's AC bonus while attacking with the same hand can apply to the scizore as well.

Critical hits are rarer to get than maximum damage anyway, so might as well get the weapon that has the highest damage cap.

My gripe is that martial one-handed weapons always cap at 1d8, while exotic one-handed weapons always cap at 1d10. The scizore looks like a cheap bastard sword when it's supposed to be an upgraded spiked gauntlet.

[mplindustries]

Gorbacz wrote:

JiCi wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

Masterwork, problem solved...

I have money to spend on a masterwork weapon. Difficult math question: do I want a weapon that will make me hit at +5 for 1d10/x2 damage or one that will make me hit at +6 for 1d8/x3 or 1d8/x2 at 19-20 damage?

Unquestionably, the +6 to hit.

Math:

H is your hit chance, C is your crit chance, and D is static damage modifier. Note that x3 to hit and 19-20 threat are identical, so for simplicity, I'm just going to calculate the x3 crit. To find out which weapon is better, we just have to do this math:

2CH(5.5+D) + (H-CH)(5.5+D) > 3C(H+.05)(4.5+D) + [H+.05-C(H+.05)](4.5+D)
11CH + 2CHD + 5.5H + HD - 5.5CH - CHD > 13.5CH + 3CHD + .675C + .15CD + 4.5H + HD + .225 + .05D - 4.5CH - CHD - .225C - .05CD
3.5CH + CHD + 5.5H + HD > 9CH + 2CHD + .45C + .1CD + 4.5H + HD + .225 + .05D
H > 5.5CH + CHD + .45C + .1CD + .225 + .05D
H > .275H + .05HD + .0225 + .005D + .225 + .05D
.725H > .05HD + .2475 + .055D

So, ok, lets say you have 10 static damage.

.725H > .5H + .7975
.225H > .7975
H > 3.54

So, with 10 static damage, the Scizore is better if you can hit the enemy 355% of the time.

If you want to go lower, let's do 5 damage.

.725H > .25H + .5225
.475H > .5225
H > 1.1

So, if you have 5 bonus damage, the scizore is better if you hit 110% of the time...

Yeah, the point is, Accuracy matters.

JiCi wrote:

Critical hits are rarer to get than maximum damage anyway, so might as well get the weapon that has the highest damage cap.

Er, what?

A 19-20 crit range crits .1 x your hit chance of the time. This is because you have to actually roll the crit and then confirm it with a hit. So, if you hit 50% of the time, you crit 5% of the time.

A d10 weapon deals maximum damage .1 x your hit chance of the time. This is because you have to hit before you can roll damage at all. So, if you hit 50% of the time, you deal max damage 5% of the time.

Oh, hey, look, its the same frequency.

Seriously, Accuracy > Damage, because accuracy multiplies the damage you're already dealing.

JiCi wrote:

My gripe is that martial one-handed weapons always cap at 1d8, while exotic one-handed weapons always cap at 1d10. The scizore looks like a cheap bastard sword when it's supposed to be an upgraded spiked gauntlet.

I understand that it bothers you, but it's honestly one of the worst one handed weapons, because of that penalty to hit.

[Devilkiller]

I'm not too sure that the scizore can be used with Improved Shield Bash. If it could that might make it a pretty interesting (if still suboptimal) weapon.

I think the scizore really could use an errata though. In particular, it seems silly to me that it does piercing damage when it is basically an axe-like blade. I think it should do slashing damage and have a x3 crit

My reasoning on the crit rating is:
A) it is otherwise inferior to other weapons
B) Chuck Liddell punched a side of beef in half with it (almost)

[MyTThor]

JiCi wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

JiCi wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

A -1 penalty to hit is significantly more penalizing than dealing 1 average damage more per hit is beneficial.

Accuracy is far more valuable than damage.

Masterwork, problem solved...

I have money to spend on a masterwork weapon. Difficult math question: do I want a weapon that will make me hit at +5 for 1d10/x2 damage or one that will make me hit at +6 for 1d8/x3 or 1d8/x2 at 19-20 damage?

The scizore is almost un-disarmable and counts also as a shield. The masterwork bonus to attack rolls counters the penalty to hit, and I'm pretty sure that any feat that allows you to keep a buckler's AC bonus while attacking with the same hand can apply to the scizore as well.

Critical hits are rarer to get than maximum damage anyway, so might as well get the weapon that has the highest damage cap.

My gripe is that martial one-handed weapons always cap at 1d8, while exotic one-handed weapons always cap at 1d10. The scizore looks like a cheap bastard sword when it's supposed to be an upgraded spiked gauntlet.

I don't know why you're worried about making it an exotic weapon when it's mechanically inferior as a martial weapon. What was the last min-max build you saw wearing a scizore? You're just flat out incorrect on this.

[N N 959]

Some of the math in this thread is a little puzzling..

When comparing weapons, there are two main metrics:

1. Expected damage = The average damage output given a specific situations. People might call this Damage Per Round, or Damage per Attack, etc.

2. Extreme outcomes = The result of converging favorable conditions i.e. what is the max damage this weapon might do given other modifiers and is that going to cause problems for the game?

The challenge using metrics in RPG's is that the context can skew the results. In other words, everything is dependent upon the circumstances. But let's look at some ED fundamentals.

I think Joanna took a stab at this, but let me throw out some things (partly repeating what she said):

-The average damage (AD) for a 1d8 is 4.5 points per hit. A 1d10 averages 5.5. The formula is MinDamage + MaxDamage / 2.

-So the expected damage (ED) is going to be the probability of hitting x the average damage.

-Every +1/-1 on the attack die changes the average damage by 5%. That's right, only a 5% difference in adding or subtracting a 1 on the attack. So that a weapon that averages 5.5 will normally do .275 less damage as a result of the -1. There are some asymmetries with regards to always hitting on a 20 and always missing with a 1 that work in favor of high damage low accuracy attacks, but we won't go into that.

-Let's verify that with dice numbers. Let's say the AC is 15 and we need a 16 to hit. The ED of the 1d8 weapon is .25 x 4.5 = 1.125 damage per swing. The 1d10 weapon needs a 17 than is .20 x 5.5 = 1.1. If we add back that +1, the 5.5 would = 1.375 (exactly .275) more.

So now you're thinking ...yeah, that -1 is making it worse than a longsword. But let's look at the other end of the event space.

What happens when you only need an 11 to hit?

4.5 x .5 = 2.25

5.5 x .45 = 2.475 (which is exactly .275 less than what the scizore would get without the -1).

Well look at that, suddenly the scizore is getting a higher ED.

What's the lesson here?

In laymen's terms, the easier it is to hit, the more you should be willing to sacrifice Attack modifiers for Damage increases.

One caveat is what I mention above. Because you ALWAYS hit with a 20 and ALWAYS miss with a 1, this skews the statistics in favor of super high damage weapons. A weapon that only hits on a 20 but does 10d10 worth of damage (ED of 2.75) can look artificially good compared to something that only misses on a 1 but does 1d2 worth of damage (ED of 1.425).

CRITS
Interestingly, 19-20/x2 is nearly identical to 20x3. For example, let's say you need a 16 to hit with a longsword: .1 (hitting on a 19-20) x .25 (confirming the crit) x 4.5 = .1125. If we do this vs AC 10 then you get .225

Let's compare that to a 20 x3: .05 x .25 x 9 = .1125. If we do this vs AC 10, then damage is .225 Same as 19-20 x2.

Where this gets skewed ever so slightly is when you can only hit on a 20. Then the 19-20 range is suddenly worse than the 20-only. But the statistical difference is minuscule because both only have a 1 in 400 chance of confirming the crit.

So scizone's higher crit multiple is negligble in terms of expected outcomes. Where it plays a factor is in the extreme outcomes scenario. That less than .005% of the time that you get max damage on a crit, it might kill the target outright and expose you to less attacks over all.

There's more to be said. But ask yourself which is easier increase, attack modifiers or damage modifiers?

[kyrt-ryder]

Pst: Scizore is 20/x2, not 20/x3

[N N 959]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Pst: Scizore is 20/x2, not 20/x3

My bad.

[mplindustries]

N N 959 wrote:

What happens when you only need an 11 to hit?

4.5 x .5 = 2.25

5.5 x .45 = 2.475 (which is exactly .275 less than what the scizore would get without the -1).

Well look at that, suddenly the scizore is getting a higher ED.

You only looked at weapon damage, but +1 to hit raises all your damage.

Don't do 4.5 x .5. Do (4.5 + all your damage modifiers) x .5.

So, if you have 18 strength and power attack at level 1, for exmaple, you're looking at adding 6 more damage.

Then it's really 10.5 x .5 vs. 11.5 x .45. Then it's 5.25 vs. 5.175 average damage.

Accuracy increases ALL damage you deal, not just the base weapon die.

Oh, and as for your comparison of 19-20/x2 and x3, they are identical assuming you hit on a 19 and assuming the enemy has endless HP. The x3 does pull ahead slightly when you only hit on a 20 (but really, you're screwed then anyway), while the 19-20/x2 pulls ahead when x3 delivers overkill.

If your average damage is 20, and you're facing enemies with 30 HP, a x3 crit doesn't help you anymore than a x2 will, but the 19-20/x2 crit will help twice as often.

Thus, while statistically, 19-20/x2 is equivalent to x3 (just as 18-20/x2 is equivalent to x4), more frequent crits ultimately end up better in most real game circumstances than the harder crits.

[N N 959]

mplindustries wrote:

So, if you have 18 strength and power attack at level 1, for exmaple, you're looking at adding 6 more damage.

What's one of the first things I said?

"context can skew results."

The baseline comparison is weapon vs weapon. Once you start changing the context, the outcome is different. More to the point, you can't use a scizone two-handed. So that fact right there makes a longsword win out if you're going to start playing what-if scenarios and add STR mods.

Quote:

Thus, while statistically, 19-20/x2 is equivalent to x3 (just as 18-20/x2 is equivalent to x4), more frequent crits ultimately end up better in most real game circumstances than the harder crits.

Supposition. I can make an opposing supposition that if I get a big hit early in a fight, that ends the fighter sooner. Means I'm subject to less risk. Since we know that statistically the expected damage output is identical, the increased volatility from a higher crit mod benefits from the asymmetric outcome of a big hit finishing the fight.

Obviously this assumes I need peak damage to end the fight. At higher level, most monsters have more hit points than a single crit from a longsword, even if you count other mods. Once again, context changes the results. So ultimately, it's generally pointless to argue which weapon is "better" when they are different.

My point to the OP is that the stats alone do not determine which weapon is better. Context does.