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Let's say, I'm a Carnivalist 2/Vivisectionist 3. I flank with my familiar. I know I deal an extra 3d6 in sneak attack damage on my attacks, but how much does my familiar do: 1d6 or 3d6?
So, basically, does the Familiar only get sneak attack dice I get from Carnivalist, or does it get all my sneak attack dice? If it's the former, why? If it's the latter, has this now become the new standard for Sneak Attack builds?
i think it is yet another poorly worded archetype. my GUESS would be that the intent was that the familiar only get sneak attack from the carnivalist, because otherwise i think it would get ridiculous, once you start adding the valet archetype to the familiar and start getting teamwork feats. but that's just my opinion.
as far as RAW is concerned : fnord.
Core Rulebook, Classes chapter, Multiclassing section, paragraph 3:
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
It would just be based on the archtypes class level.
But the familiar dealing Sneak Attack is not something that is reliant on his character level.
Sneak Attack from multiple sources stack, last I checked, and there's no scaling ability in there that says "The familiar can deal Sneak Attack equal to 1/2 your Carnivalist level" or some such. It just deals Sneak Attack "as appropriate".
It's poorly worded and ambiguous, for certain. What's not certain is whether the intent is that the familiar deals your Sneak Attack or the familiar only deal Sneak Attack gained form the Carnivalist archetype.
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Well let's put it this way, does the familiar have class levels which are granting SA beyond the special ability granting it SA from Carnivalist levels as per the quoted rules?
As a familiar, I'm fairly certain that answer is 'No.'
As such the only 'levels' granting the familiar SA are Carnivalist levels... So dealing SA is in fact reliant on the specific class level instead of 'character levels' for the familiar. Having the quoted rules makes the issue much less 'ambiguous' and rather clear. The familiars only access to SA is the archtype in this particular situation unless you somehow have have familiars with class levels granting SA.
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The actual RAW on Carnivalist is that the Rogue gains sneak attack, and if the familiar has a sneak attack ability of it's own, it's okay to use it if it's within 30' of the master.
Seriously, go read it again. The ability does not explicitly give the SA ability to the familiar, it only says "as appropriate" and leaves you to figure out what the hell that means.
In favor of 3d6:
*Familiars, unlike animal companions, derive their stats from the master's full statblock, not just his level in a pet-granting class.
*Sneak attack gained from different sources stack.
In favor of 1d6:
*The wording on Vivisectionist could be interpreted to mean that multiclass Rogue/Vivisectionists add their levels together and take SA from the Rogue table based on that. In which case, it would be 1d6 now, and 2d6 when you take one more level of either class.
*Balance issues. Vivisectionist/Carnivalist is better than straight Carnivalist. So? We know that already. Vivisectionist was banned from Society play for making Rogue players feel small in the pants.
The actual RAW on Carnivalist is that the Rogue gains sneak attack, and if the familiar has a sneak attack ability of it's own, it's okay to use it if it's within 30' of the master.
Seriously, go read it again. The ability does not explicitly give the SA ability to the familiar, it only says "as appropriate" and leaves you to figure out what the hell that means.
In favor of 3d6:
*Familiars, unlike animal companions, derive their stats from the master's full statblock, not just his level in a pet-granting class.
*Sneak attack gained from different sources stack.In favor of 1d6:
*The wording on Vivisectionist could be interpreted to mean that multiclass Rogue/Vivisectionists add their levels together and take SA from the Rogue table based on that. In which case, it would be 1d6 now, and 2d6 when you take one more level of either class.
*Balance issues. Vivisectionist/Carnivalist is better than straight Carnivalist. So? We know that already. Vivisectionist was banned from Society play for making Rogue players feel small in the pants.
If the archtypes ability doesn't grant the familiar access to SA, as a familiar doesn't 'normally' have SA, the ability does nothing for the familiar RAW.
Familiars like companions have very specific abilities spelled out in their section, a table listing what is gained for every level range, how their BAB & saves are determined and how their HD/HP are figured out. Sneak attack isn't an option or ability gained by familiars. They aren't even granted HD beyond their own 'racial' HD, there is a specific rule that allows them to use the masters HD (IE character level instead of familiar use class levels) for effects related to HD.
Now, assuming the carnivalist ability actually does something for the familiar instead of including a useless line of text, the carnivalist levels would be what grant the familiar the ability. The master may have multiple classes that grant SA however the familiar does not. It has SA granted by the carnivalist levels specifically regardless of how many HD it is treated as having via the familiar bond. Familiars don't have class levels of anything that grant SA to stack with anything else.
SA stacks. This means you don't have 1d6+2d6, but you have 3d6 if you catch the difference. Your pet should also have 3d6, since the carnevalist pet deal the same amount of sneak attack of the master.
SA stacks. This means you don't have 1d6+2d6, but you have 3d6 if you catch the difference. Your pet should also have 3d6, since the carnevalist pet deal the same amount of sneak attack of the master.
Do you have a quote or link to actual rules that explain that a bit more indepth?
SA most certainly stacks if you have an ability (like certain monsters that have SA as a special ability) or class levels that grant it. A familiar doesn't have class levels and I don't believe any of the normal RAW familiars have SA as an special ability naturally. Nothing in the rest of the archtype refers to the animal getting SA or using such an ability. It strictly says the carnivalist gets 1d6 and an additional die every 4 levels after, then says the animal can deal SA as appropriate while it is within 30' of its master.
The familiar doesn't have SA naturally or through the familiar bond.
The archtype grants the familiar the SA dice of the masters carnivalist levels (as per the rule quote above regarding class abilities and character level discrepancies). This would be the 'as appropriate' in the write up of the ability.
The carnivalist may multiclass and stack SA from other classes but those other classes would do absolutely nothing for the familiar, as the familiar doesn't have class levels and the carnivalist levels that do grant the familiar the ability are not being increased.
Let's look at the rule again:A carnivalist gains this ability starting at 2nd level. The sneak attack damage dealt is 1d6 points at 2nd level, and increases by 1d6 points every 4 carnivalist levels thereafter. A carnivalist's familiar can also deal sneak attack damage as appropriate to foes as long as it is within 30 feet of her (though only Small and larger creatures may flank enemies, as usual).It is clear that the familiar only gains sneak attack from the carnavalist levels. Would it be out of line to allow them to stack? Probably not.
I must respectfully disagree with your definition of "clear" sir.
No.
A Carnivalist gains 1d6 Sneak Attack per 4 levels.
A Carnivalist's Familiar (as long as it's within 30 feet) deals the Carnivalist's Sneak Attack. There is no mention of "The Familiar only deals Sneak Attack gained from Carnivalist levels" or any similar clause.
If he has Sneak Attack from other sources, the Familiar gains those as well.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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FWIW, my RAI would have been better phrased:
"A carnivalist's familiar can also deal an identical amount of sneak attack damage... etc." (which is to say, specifically the same SA damage as granted by the archetype and not including any other sources of sneak attack, like being an intellect devourer)
The meaning of "as appropriate" is "in whatever situations sneak attack damage would apply" and was included to avoid people saying, "Oh, look, it says it does sneak attack damage ALL THE TIME, because it doesn't say it doesn't!"
If you'd like the official RAW to be clarified, though, you'll need to flag it and hope for a FAQ at some point.