Sounds interesting. What would the roles be?
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The idea is that the PCs are basically NPCs called to action by need. Hence, "no heroes". As such, they won't really have "classes". But the roles/characters are:
Cole - The local bartender from out of town. A hulk of a man, Cole is full of stories of his mighty exploits and adventures out West. There is no animal in the American plains that Cole hasn't claimed to kill with his bare hands.
Wilkens - A well-educated doctor from up North, Wilkens moved to Jocassee Valley to retire. He still practices, but mostly prefers to stay in his cabin and read.
Richardson - Of English descent, Richardson is said to be of royal blood in his distant ancestry. Yet his life now seems far from noble. Relegated to the small town of Devil's Fork, Richardson's paranoia and obsessive vigilantism have earned him the title of de facto sheriff.
Smith - Smith was in Devil's Fork before anyone else. Most assume he named it. Nobody is quite sure how old he is, but he seems to go on forever, still tending the church and graveyard with methodical bitterness and aged indignation.
Madman - Tended by Smith, the Madman has been locked in the church tower for almost a decade. No one knows his name or his story, just that one day a man from the city brought him and left him in the church, bound from head to toe and raving mad.
EDIT: Those are placeholder names (you don't have to use them), but I used last names so you can keep them but still fill in the first name and make the character more yours. I'm also open to new character concepts, but those were the characters I'd envisioned.
I'll post build specifics if there's enough interest.
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Some history, both real and imagined, to set the mood.
Devil's Fork is a state park in Northwest South Carolina near lake Jocassee. What is now lake Jocassee used to be Jocassee Valley before being flooded in 1973-ish by a power company for hydroelectric power. All that remains of it is an old inn and a graveyard now a few hundred feet below the water line. As a bit of movie trivia, it's the same graveyard in which the opening scene of the movie "Deliverance" was filmed.
In 1880, there was basically nothing there. There was no town of "Devil's Fork". Some Native American tribes lived vaguely thereabout, but by sometime between 1880-1900 a German immigrant family by the name of Whitmire had moved in to build "Attakulla Lodge", named after a local historical Indian chief whose daughter, princess Jocassee ("Place of the Lost One"), was fabled to have drowned herself at news of her lover's death.
As far as general times, the 1880s were generally before automobiles (though some educated or cultured individuals might be aware of their existence). Firearms have been closed-cartridge for 40+ years, but flintlocks still exist. Medicine was pretty crappy, largely consisting of morphine and aspirin.
Devil's Fork is a small town of 200-300, depending on the season. It was never really meant to be a town, but some people stopped there to fish, and some others to pan for gold, and still others thought to hunt or homestead. Only a few rich families quarrel over property ownership and such, while the rest will simply fill any niche left empty, abandoning it themselves when they move on. About 100 of the town's residents are what you'd call permanent, having been there for more than a few years.
The town's buildings were made from the surrounding forest, yet somehow even for all the trees felled for construction the forest seems to be always pressing inward, choking the borders of Devil's Fork. It rains at least 6 months out of the year, mostly in the fall and spring, with some snow in the winter. There are no paved roads in or around the town, no telegraph lines, and not many ties to the outside world. As a result, most news comes from the newcomers in town, usually every spring, or from supply trips in the fall. Flinklocks and crossbows are more common than modern firearms, though some hunters may have more advanced firearms as well as compound bows.
Everyone in town knows Cole, Wilken, Smith, the Madman, and Richardson, for obvious reasons. Though Cole is from the West, he's been serving drinks at the Crusty Cup long enough that he's considered a town insider. Wilken and Smith are household names, though Smith isn't known to be actually friendly to anyone. Richardson, in his late 20s, has only been in town for 3 years. Being a relative newcomer as well as self-appointed sheriff makes most view him with suspicion and distrust, and his constant paranoia is a well-known annoyance to most. However, he does keep a tidy town, and there hasn't been any significant crime almost since he arrived, for which he is respected. And finally, the Madman is the topic of many a late night tale over brews at the Crusty Cup.
What is the gaming system? The Madman or Cole interest me.
Looking over the list, I'd definitely be interested in Richardson... Ideally, I see him with a couple of the rarer, more advanced firearms--a revolver and a repeater rifle, with which he defends the town from all threats, real and perceived. Any pre-planned reasons for his paranoia, or would it be up to the player?
I was thinking Fighter or Rogue Thug for Cole and a Knife Expert for Madman.
I think Gunslinger and Ranger could both fit Richardson very well, giving a slightly different flavor while still focusing on combat skill.
This seems like it could be very interesting. To be honest all the roles sound interesting to me. Though I'm definitely most interested in Smith.
Any chance of allowing the player to throw in a very dark twist? I'm having a great idea of an Pit-Touched(Wildblooded Infernal) Sorcerer who made a deal to serve Asmodeus (Hence the town being named Devil's Fork) in exchange for living until he decided to leave the world, just not in the "Murder everybody" way, but he was told to start the town for unknown reasons type of serve.
Of course, since you said they won't have classes, the concept could just be worked into anything by taking off the Sorcerer part. And if it's a no on the dark side, I'm sure I can come up with something equally as awesome ;)
Oh, duh, no classes. Ignore the above musings.
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Well since you've all put thought into the classes anyway, I'd be willing to entertain the idea. I just wanted to keep it low-fantasy, low-magic. My original idea for that was to just give you the class features, minus saves, BAB, spells, skills, and HD, and start everyone out at 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, saves & skills based on character, and of course, no spells.
I'd also thought of starting everyone out at 1/2 BAB, d6 HD, 0/0/0 saves, no class features, and then granting 2 feats/level that could be exchanged for class features of at least that level (provided logical prerequisites were met). For instance, you could "buy" up to 3/4 BAB for a feat, or d8 HD, or 2/0/0 saves, or grab barbarian rage, or monk unarmed strike, or paladin smite evil, etc, etc.
Feedback? Want to just do classes? Want to do class feature only builds? Want to do the buy system? Have another idea?
I think that a low ability score pt buy at 20 or 15 would work and just use the classes available while disallowing any magic-based classes. It is much easier to take things away from a generated character that do not apply and stay with the already time proven rules for things that do, than to try and come up with something entirely new. My two cents. :-)
I think totally disallowing magic entirely would be the wrong way to go if classes were let in, especially when you look at the doctor, and to a lesser extent Smith or the mad man. Then you have to figure out whether classes that gain minor spell access later on are "magic" classes, and whether divine "magic" is also excluded.
For low magic I'd envision a restriction on spells per day. depending on how low you want to go, I'd say anywhere from -1 or 2/day for each spell level to only having 1/2(rounded down) the number of spells per day, with a minimum of 0/day plus bonus from high attributes(which in a lower point buy setting like this, won't be very high). This way there's still the choice of spellcasting, but at a very diminished capacity.
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Filios, I agree that it's generally better to not fix what isn't broken, but I didn't really think the standard system would suit the "no heroes" feel. I figured trimming spells from spellcasters, still allowing spell-like class features, then evening fighter-types & casters by flattening out BAB & HD, would be a pretty simple but fair way to do it.
Padawan09, I'd considered those options, but the entire feel of having "spells" as magic ritually cast using focus and material components and such seems archaic for the setting. I think I'd rather all supernatural effects come from mysterious items or strange evocations (like a cleric's domain power or a wizard's school power). That way there's still a chance to use strange abilities, but it's not tied to a deity or to precise arcane mastery. It's more of an inherent (and restricted) ability.
I think I'd be interested in Wilkens or Smith.
Wilkens could be an Alchemist (perhaps Vivisectionist and/or Chirugeon). This could help maintain a very low-magic feel. Vivisectionist could be from his experience as a surgeon, particularly during the civil war where speedy amputation was a vital skill. Churigeon is obvious.
For Smith, a low magic clergyman is a little trickier. Cleric and Oracle are out, so perhaps Paladin or Inquisitor would fit better. I get the feel that as a man who just minds the church but keeps a madman locked away inside, an Inquisitor might fit better. And inquisitors rock in mystery-type settings.
Have you given any thought to the dark twist version of Smith I mentioned D-kal? And if were gunna be opposing Asmodeus, he could always be explained as having realized the possibility that whatever is happening in the town is because of his deal w/ Asmodeus, and is looking to repent.
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Okay, so far we have interest as follows:
Filios - Madman (knife expert) or Cole (rogue thug)
Loup - Richardson (gunslinger or ranger)
Padawan09 - Smith or Any
Stormwind - Wilkens (vivisectionist or chirurgeon) or Smith (inquisitor?)
Some notes:
About character creation - Since most of you are fantasizing about classes, I think the class features system would work the best. This would allow a Madman knife expert or Cole rogue thug with very few changes from straight PF. It would also Richardson gunslinger/ranger without the full BAB/HD of a real hero. Smith could be a strong inquisitor with few edits (most notably a lack of spells), and I'd allow a special case for a Wilkens chirurgeon (perhaps losing bombs and gaining a small range of extracts, most importantly CLW).
About the setting - Monsters are only slightly more real than they are now (most people don't believe in them, some people do). Other planes exist, as well as perhaps rare magic items and other supernatural abilities as described in the character creation possibilities. But magic deities or arcane masters are non-existent. This is *almost* real-world.
@Padawan - I think I'll keep the town as just a town for townsake. As far as Asmodeus, while I'm not allowing general deities, you could have gotten your power from a powerful extraplanar being that you somehow came in contact with, and he could call himself Asmodeus. But actual planar communication/travel will be almost non-existent.
About Richardson - no pre-planned reason for the paranoia, but based on the setting, he could have met some strange and mystical individuals, encountered what he thinks might have been a monster, or somehow become aware of another plane. Or he could have more mundane reasons for paranoia, including mental issues. I'll leave this up to the player.
About Smith - just because he tends the church doesn't mean he's churchy. He's no minister certainly. So while divine classes may suit him well, there's really a lot of options for him.
More background - True story, the Devil's Fork area is one of the rainiest places in the US. Also, perhaps the earliest construction in the area was a large Victorian-style home. Can't make this stuff up.
@GM D-Kal: Excellent! I will propose Cole, a Rogue Thug, over the next few days. I am assuming Level 1, but what Point Buy would you like to use for abilities or what rolling mechanism, and what would be your starting gold?
Also, I do not want to throw a monkey wrench into things for you, but have you considered a Wild West RPG gaming system like Aces and Eights?
Hah. I think I just had an epiphany, albeit a comical one, for Smith.
Fighter wielding his graveyard shovel (taking the Catch Off Guard feat of course) >_> This seems like a horrible idea, and yet a fantastic one at the same time... The only question is whether it's horribly fantastic, or fantastically horrible.
The other question would be, would you allow feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec to be applied to "Shovel"?
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I've not considered other systems, no. I only know a few, don't have a lot of time to learn a new one, and well, Devi's Fork is Southeast. But it's definitely something to think about if I should decide to do any follow-up scenarios in the same basic universe, but perhaps in California or even Mexico.
As far as character creation:
- I was considering starting level 1-3, so I thought I'd ask the players where they'd like to start.
- I'm banking on a 15-point buy with age modifiers (for Smith & Wilkens).
- Starting gold, as well as other character-specific attributes, will be posted shortly.
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@Padawan: I actually know a guy doing that in PFS with this trait. He's like a level 5 cleric or something and still hasn't found a good reason to stop using his shovel.
I see no reason why Weapon Focus/Specialization wouldn't apply to that.
I was going to allow one trait per character, pending GM approval.
In that case I would like to submit for GM approval on the Rough and Ready trait in my Smith build ;)
Also, what age category would you be putting Smith in?
And last question I can think of at the moment, did the Civil War (or something equivalent) still occur in this world?
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Yes, you can consider history to be real, though each character can have a different perspective/opinion on history ("Robert E Lee was Dracula!") with varying degrees of truth or relevance, depending on how the story unfolds.
As far as aging rules, lets move back everything by one step, landing Smith in the middle age or old age category rather than old or venerable (your choice for how old he really is).
So Middle Aged would become 53-70, and Old would become 70+2d20, and Venerable would be beyond?
As for the starting level, I'd probably throw my hat in for level 2 because of the 3/4BAB for everybody (and because I'm greedy and want to be able to write "Weapon Focus-Shovel" on a character ASAP ;P)
If Padawan has an interesting take on Smith, I can certainly make an interesting version of Dr. Wilkens.
For starting level, I'd vote for 3rd. 3rd is a good level as you don't have the vulnerability of a 1st level character, and it allows you to have the feel of a character with some life experience.
This being 1880, I presume you will be using the Guns Everywhere level of prevalence?
Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The Gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.
Dr. John Henry Wilkens
The son of a formally trained doctor, the dismal state of training in the medical profession in America prompted J. Henry Wilkens to seek his education oversees. Like his father, he trained in Oxford, gaining degrees in medicine and chemistry. Upon his return, he sought and was granted a commission in the Army as a regimental surgeon. He served throughout the civil war in that role, siding with the Union, and even seeing combat a few times when positions were overrun so quickly that the wounded were unable to be moved in time.A chemist as well as a surgeon, he was constantly experimenting with compounds, trying to come up with tinctures that would relieve pain better than laudanum and opiates, safer anesthetics than ether and chloroform, and salves or medicines that would speed healing or ward off infection. Due to his efforts he was able to perform his duties admirably, and was frequently recognized for his contribution to the war effort.
His experiences with volatile compounds like ether prompted him to focus much of his energy in chemistry, as they did not fair well in combat zones, or cope well with storage. While he started out trying to make safer, more stable anesthetics, he also gained an interest in explosives, seeking ways to make them more stable, and safer for transport and storage. Over the years he developed a correspondence with a notable authority in the area, Dr. Alfred Nobel.
After the war, he retired from the army with the rank of Colonel, opening up a private practice in Maine. Some ten years later, at the age of 60, he retired to a small town in South Carolina. At the present time, he has resided in the fine town of Devil's Fork for about 5 years.
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Good background. I like it. I assume then you're going Chirurgeon?
As far as firearms, they fall somewhere between "commonplace" and "everywhere", with flintlocks being simple weapons at 1/10th listed costs and advanced firearms being martial weapons at 1/5th listed cost. I realize this is about 30 years late for that kind of firearms setting, but Devil's Fork is stuck just a little bit in the past, abstracted from surrounding civilization.
@DM Stormwind: I am actually submitting for Cole.
I would throw my hat in for 3rd Level as well, but any works for me. I will have a profile with background up as soon as the level and starting gold is decided. Thanks
Is Madman still open? Because I'm interested in it. I'm somewhat intimidated since all of you seem to have thought it out well and I'm not sure I can get the 1880s feel correctly, but I would still like to participate if you'll have me!
I'm thinking the Madman as a Witch with the Insanity Patron (not a deity, perhaps just an insane being from another plane who the Madman could have accidentally formed a bond through in some occult ritual?). And perhaps he could have attached himself to one of the bats living in the Church's tower as his familiar?
I don't know how much leeway I have in the background of the Madman--did you already have something in mind for his insanity or history?
His relationship with Smith is also something to think about. Is he bitter about him for being locked up? Treats him like a friend? Bounces between the two depending on his mood? Is he fine with being locked up or wants to get out? Is he actually coherent enough to realize his situation?
*things to ponder about*
@Stormwind: Tis me who is interested in playing the old coot ;) And I'm also very happy to see you chose Maine in your background, as I'm from there. An English Mainah accent... hmmm... could be interetsing if you give him any of the "Mainah" accent haha.
I will hopefully have a profile and background up by tonight, going to get started on it now.
@rashly: I believe the Madman is the last slot that no one has thrown specific interest toward (since Filios decided to submit for Cole). And I was thinking that although D-Kal said "No one knows him to be friendly to anyone", the Madman would be an exception. He would take care of the Madman to the best of his ability and probably talk to him as a semi-confidante.
Hmm, my posting time might also be something to consider since I seem to be on the other side of the world from most of you (GMT +8). I stay up late sometimes, so I can get on, but the difficulty in getting me on a time when most people are posting is real.
If it'll be a problem, I don't mind not joining since I don't want to ruin it for the rest of you, but I was hoping for a (somewhat) slower pace since D-Kal has mentioned he wouldn't have much time to GM.
Though we could always say the Madman is doing something Mad (I don't mind!) and is incoherently useless for the most part. Though if need requires it, he can be ordered around when he's in the state, or seems to act of his own accord strangely (GM botted by a mysterious force?).
Here's an initial write up for Dr. Wilkens, assuming level 3. Let me know what you think.
For the relationship with Madman: In secret of course, he'd never let anyone know that he wasn't dry all the time ;)
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I'm thinking the Madman as a Witch with the Insanity Patron.
Since there are no spells, there are no patron spells, so there are no patrons. But otherwise, that was good thinking.
And perhaps he could have attached himself to one of the bats living in the Church's tower as his familiar?
That sounds fine. A rat or centipede or something would also make sense.
I don't know how much leeway I have in the background of the Madman--did you already have something in mind for his insanity or history?
You can make his background up to the point where he went mad. I have a reason for him going mad, and while he has been mad, he's basically feral and unreasoning.
His relationship with Smith is also something to think about. Is he bitter about him for being locked up? Treats him like a friend? Bounces between the two depending on his mood? Is he fine with being locked up or wants to get out? Is he actually coherent enough to realize his situation?
At the beginning of the campaign he will be entirely mad and not the least bit coherent. He has no feelings towards Smith as he doesn't even recognize him from day to day. The Madman will enter the campaign once he is coherent, and will have no memory of the events that transpired since going mad.
Are we keeping the same feat progression for leveling up D-Kal?
And how much damage would a 2-handed shovel do? The improvised weapon stuff just says "look at the table and determine what it should do". I was thinking 2d4 like a Scythe since they're both agricultural tools.
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Yes, standard feat progression. I'd call a 2-handed shovel a greatclub.
Here are the notes on skills and saves for each character.
4 Skill ranks per level (+/- intelligence mod)
No metal, wooden, or stone armor.
Spellcraft will be used in place of UMD.
Cole - 50gp - Appraise, Bluff, Diplo, Intim, Climb, Handle Animal, Kno(local), Kno(nature), Profession. 2/0/0 saves.
Wilkens - 200gp - Heal, Kno(geography), Kno(history), Kno(local), Kno(religion), Linguistics, Profession, Sleight of Hand. 0/0/2 saves.
Richardson - 100gp - Acro, Climb, Disable Dev, Disguise, Esc Artist, Kno(arcana), kno(dungeoneering), kno(geography), kno(local), kno(nobility), Percep, Ride, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival. 2/2/2 saves.
Smith - 25gp + firearm + 5 rounds ammunition - Bluff, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, kno(arcana), kno(engineering), kno(history), kno(local), kno(religion), Percep, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival. 2/0/2 saves.
Madman - 50gp - Appraise, Bluff, Diplo, Disable Dev, Disguise, Escape Artist, kno(arcana), kno(nature), kno(planes), Linguistics, Percep, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth. 0/2/2 saves.
Excellent! Thanks much.
15-point buy, correct? And I'm fine with any starting level.
How are we playing Hexes? They're somewhat, well, supernatural. Magical classes don't fit well for a low-magic setting (no duh) so I might change 'classes' after all. Not that it'll impact much.
Aside from that, I'll sweep the madness thing under the rug for consideration of what actual skills and background the Madman has.
I'm placing him about early twenties when he first went mad, so he'd be about the thirties or so.
Considering the setting is 1880s, the Madman being locked for about a decade, then his skills and viewpoint would be about 1860s.
Initial thoughts make me think of doing him as a simple poor agricultural laborer in America, but I might go the other way and make him a new immigrant (a bit from before he first went mad anyway) from Victorian London. He was a child pickpocket and continued on polishing his skills as a thief, but later on went straight and tried to pursue a life of books in America with the help of a friend. Then he went mad.
Do these figures factor in if we start at a higher level? If not, how will the extra be handled? (25 is enough for my shovel, so either way is ok with me)
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A witch would be fine for the Madman. Without going into spoilers, he contacted another plane and thus went mad. A witch is probably as high-magic as you can get in this kind of structure, but the Madman has the highest-magic story potential, so it's fine. Hexes have their own built-in low magic limitations.
I see no particular reason to increase gold with level in this instance, so I'd say it's fine as-is.
Okay, this certainly expanded! Looking over things, I'm getting...
3rd level
15 point buy
D8 HD
3/4 BAB
Class features as a given class
4 skill ranks per level
1 trait
Is that it? If that's so, how are we doing hp--rolling, average +1, what?
Looking at that chart, it appears my idea of a repeater rifle is out :( Ah well, a muzzle-loader will have to do.
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Those are all correct. HP should be half+1, but full HD on first level.
I guess we're settled on level 3 then.
You can get a repeater eventually, but for now, muzzle-loader will have to do.
Actually, can you even afford that? You might have to go dagger or something until you get some money.
Oh, and I should have mentioned, two-handed melee weapons (with the exception of, say, a shovel) are generally frowned upon.
If he goes with Gunslinger for the sheriff he could get a free early pistol or rifle. If not, it'd cost all of his gold to buy a pistol.
Ah! I forgot about that!
It's waaaaay too much to hope that it'd extend to an advanced rifle, though.
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Smith, as a general groundskeeper, starts out with a firearm. I won't stop that from being a rifle, revolver, or shotgun, and I won't stop him from turning it over to you to borrow if RP-ing should so dictate.
That said, it's not a very high-crime town, so something like a whip and a sap should do for a sheriff, I would think.
Padawan is right about the gunslinger though, and I could see letting you have a more interesting flintlock from that, like a double-barreled pistol, if you so desire.
Question for you Stormwind, how did you get 3d8+6 HP with no Con mod or feats?
And something about a sheriff with a sap makes me giddy inside lmao.
I present Cole Younger for review. I will add background soon!
Same question for you Filios... how did you get a count of "3d8+4"?
It's nothing personal against anyone... I've just been seeing it a lot of HP that doesn't quite make sense lately. Like a level 1 Witch with no Con mod or feats with 14 HP somehow... What am I missing?
d8 HD +1 per level for favored class + 1 for Con bonus.
First Level 8+1+1 = 10
Second Level 4+1+1 = 6
Third Level 4+1+1 = 6
Total : 22
I also added three feats per class and race. Do we get these?
Also, what would 3/4 BAB be if it is 2 for a third level Rogue?