Can you use a Cleave action to perform a trip attack?

[TGMaxMaxer]

I was looking thru, you can use cleave to make 1 attack on 2 adjacent targets.

You can replace any melee attack with Disarm/sunder/trip per RAW.

Can you cleave trip? obviously doing no damage but putting 2 adjacent targets prone?

[maouse]

"Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single
attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within
reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make
an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus)
against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within
reach. You can only make one additional attack per round
with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty
to your Armor Class until your next turn."

Single attack is any attack type listed under attacks in the combat section. Normal damage for a trip is none, just knock them prone. Move on to the next foe if they are HIT (not damaged). In short, YES, absolutely.

A harder to explain one would be throwing a splash weapon and then hitting an adjacent foe... (it doesn't say "melee weapon attack") This is where we grey into the RAI versus RAW (rules as intended versus rules as written) realm.

[TGMaxMaxer]

See.. that's what I thought. However, one of our local PFS GM's said no. You can only replace regular melee attacks, not cleave melee attacks, which makes absolutely no sense.

I guess he's never seen a leg sweep that hits 2 people before.

[Pupsocket]

maouse wrote:

A harder to explain one would be throwing a splash weapon and then hitting an adjacent foe... (it doesn't say "melee weapon attack") This is where we grey into the RAI versus RAW (rules as intended versus rules as written) realm.

It does say "reach", though; only melee weapons have "reach", ranged weapons have "range".

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to require using the same weapon. You could Bad Touch a guy and greatsword his buddy - but that's way off the RAI.

[The Fox]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

See.. that's what I thought. However, one of our local PFS GM's said no. You can only replace regular melee attacks, not cleave melee attacks, which makes absolutely no sense.

There is no such thing as a "cleave melee attack." Cleave grants an additional attack, not a "cleave melee attack."

In fact, you can hit one of the targets for damage, and trip the other. Or you can disarm one and sunder the other's weapon. Etc.

[Drakkiel]

RAI is surely melee only, if not just because the enchant Mighty Cleaving can only be put on melee weapons, then because its stretching it to think otherwise, and as Pupsocket put it the feat says "reach" which I take to mean your own reach. So 5ft normally, more if for some reason your reach is larger (enlarge person, reach weapons, ect.)

I agree that you can do maneuvers though...seems legit

[Shifty]

Drakkiel wrote:

I agree that you can do maneuvers though...seems legit

That's how I'm reading it too.

[andy mcdonald 623]

At this point, I read it as a melee attack plus a melee attack against adjacent foe within reach. I think maneuvers can be exchanged for either or both melee attacks. But beware, unless you have the improved X feats, you will be subject to the AoO's. This could be problematic.

Andy

[littlehewy]

I can see why a GM that hadn't encountered this tactic before might rule against it. But AFAIK, for the reasons others have posted above it's perfectly legal.

[Shifty]

Indeed they might draw AoO's, so bear that in mind!

[Winston Colt]

Soooo Vital Stike = single attack, can be combined with cleave?

RAI and as a DM I wouldnt allow it but RAW can it be taken that way?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Oh... I was aware of the AoO's. I won initiative, had 2 enemies standing together, I moved up, and being a lore warden/skulking slayer (not charged mind you... can't cleave on a charge) and with Gr Trip and Imp dirty trick and combat reflexes (skulking slayer lets you dirty trick any time you can sneak attack as a melee attack instead of a standard as well) told him I was going to cleave, trip them both, and use my attack from greater trip to blind them both with a dirty trick (since they were still flatfooted, i had the option to sneak attack). this would take them a move to clear the blind, and another to stand, both provoking a real attack from me while prone (and blind if they did it in the wrong order). It would also allow all my allies a round to do whatever since I was the only one with initiative ahead of the enemies.

I thought it was a brilliant use of a single action economy, since I wouldn't have been able to kill either of them in a round even with sneak attack.

However, he wasn't really familiar with the combat maneuvers in general, being more of a hit them again kinda player, so he said no dice. I just wanted a second opinion on my reading really.

[littlehewy]

Winston Colt wrote:

Soooo Vital Stike = single attack, can be combined with cleave?

RAI and as a DM I wouldnt allow it but RAW can it be taken that way?

No.

[Shifty]

Winston Colt wrote:

Soooo Vital Stike = single attack, can be combined with cleave?

RAI and as a DM I wouldnt allow it but RAW can it be taken that way?

Hmmm you could possibly Vital Strike the first person then Cleave the other, but you'd only get the precision damage on the first hit.

I agree it looks vague, but I'd probably allow it.

[littlehewy]

Shifty wrote:

Winston Colt wrote:

Soooo Vital Stike = single attack, can be combined with cleave?

RAI and as a DM I wouldnt allow it but RAW can it be taken that way?

Hmmm you could possibly Vital Strike the first person then Cleave the other, but you'd only get the precision damage on the first hit.

I agree it looks vague, but I'd probably allow it.

Unfortunately, Vital Strike can only be used when you use the attack action, which is a specific standard action. Cleave is not an attack action, it is its own specific standard action as well. Checking the FAQ entries for both feats should clear up any vagueness that the CRB feat descriptions might create.

[Kazaan]

You could, however, use Vital Strike on an attack action used to trip. However, it would just make them extra-prone and is rather silly.

[Shifty]

That was the only wording that looked problematic, and the more I re-read it the more I agree. Otherwise you could theoretically use Vital Strike at the end of a Full-Attack action as an iterative.

[Kazaan]

Shifty wrote:

That was the only wording that looked problematic, and the more I re-read it the more I agree. Otherwise you could theoretically use Vital Strike at the end of a Full-Attack action as an iterative.

That's pretty much what people were doing before the Devs clarified the difference between the Attack action and actions that involve attacking. People thought you could do double-damage your first iterative attack, then continue on with the rest of the full-attack and thought the only problem was people not reading the "double a single attack" when they wanted to double all their iteratives.

[littlehewy]

Kazaan wrote:

You could, however, use Vital Strike on an attack action used to trip. However, it would just make them extra-prone and is rather silly.

Hmm I don't think Vital Strike doubles your prone dice...

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