freedom of movement... or is it?

[Daxthemonk]

Attach vs. Freedom of movement
I would put a link to the property but I am on my phone...
Basically attach says when you hit you automatically start a grapple, what happens if freedom of movement is already going?

Would they have to spend the action to get out of said grapple?

[BillyGoat]

You could argue there's a gap in the rules, there.

Myself, Attach sounds like a grapple that automatically succeeds.

Attach wrote:

The creature automatically latches onto its target when it successfully makes the listed attack. The creature is considered grappling, but the target is not. The target can attack or grapple the creature as normal, or break the attach with a successful grapple or Escape Artist check. Most creatures with this ability have a racial bonus to maintain a grapple (listed in its CMB entry).

Whereas Freedom of Movement forces grapple checks to automatically fail.

Freedom of Movement wrote:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

Personally, I think the spell trumps an extraordinary ability.

Even though Attach doesn't specifically call for a grapple check, it's treated as a grapple that automatically succeeds. Which would be negated by Freedom of Movement's exception that says grapples automatically fail.

But, definitely room for clarification and interpretation.

[Mauril]

I see it a bit different, actually. The spell grants a freedom of movement, which grappling normally hinders. The attach ability, however, does not hinder movement for the target (the one with FoM on), and thus doesn't trigger the auto-fail condition of grapples. Additionally, the attach ability doesn't say it's a grapple check, but rather simply a rider effect from the attack.

So, the creature gets to latch on for free (not hindering the target's movements or attacks, the conditions of the spell) if the attach succeeds, however, on the target's turn, they automatically escape if they choose to, since they automatically succeed on Escape Artist checks to escape a grapple (a condition of breaking an attach).

So, attach forces the target to take an action to remove the attached creature (since FoM doesn't make it a free action to use the combat maneuver or skill check) but otherwise is completely escapable.

In my opinion, the attach ability is more specific than the spell, since the spell is meant to deal with a wide array of things whereas the ability only works for a limited number of creatures.

However, I can see playing it either way at a normal table. Just giving the plausible other side as I saw it.

[BillyGoat]

Mauril wrote:

So, the creature gets to latch on for free (not hindering the target's movements or attacks, the conditions of the spell) if the attach succeeds, however, on the target's turn, they automatically escape if they choose to, since they automatically succeed on Escape Artist checks to escape a grapple (a condition of breaking an attach).

Excellent point, actually. I overlooked the "target is not considered grappled" aspect of Attach.

Which is funny, because I used stirges not that long ago...

Given this, I'm inclined to defer to your conclusions. Attach does not grapple the target (who is the one under "FoM"), so FoM wouldn't prevent the attachment. You're still free to move, as Mauril reminds us.

[Avatar-1]

I don't quite understand Mauril's description, but I think this is simpler than it seems.

The key is that attach would "automatically succeed" to attach, and freedom of movement would "automatically succeed" to break the attach, on each creature's respective turn.

[Daxthemonk]

Yes but attach> fom because it does not burn a move every round so it gets to full attack every turn

[Troubleshooter]

So what if you attempt to grapple a character and roll a natural 20? Would you rule that can override freedom of movement?

This also leads me to the question -- as the target of Attach, I'm not considered grappled. Does that mean I can freely walk away and end the grapple? Looks like it to me ...

[Mauril]

Attach does not require a roll to initiate, it just happens. A grapple check, even on a natural 20, still required a roll to initiate and thus automatically fails. If you are required to make a roll to initiate a grapple - even before you roll - the grapple fails. The thing is, the roll required for attach is an attack roll to deal damage, not a grapple check.

Let's compare grab and attach, two rather similar abilities.

Grab wrote:

Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Attach wrote:

Attach (Ex) The creature automatically latches onto its target when it successfully makes the listed attack. The creature is considered grappling, but the target is not. The target can attack or grapple the creature as normal, or break the attach with a successful grapple or Escape Artist check. Most creatures with this ability have a racial bonus to maintain a grapple (listed in its CMB entry).

Note that grab specifically calls out the fact that the grab is a free action grapple check, meaning that FoM would negate that ability. Attach simply says that it automatically latches on and then notes that the attaching creature is considered to be grappled but the target is not. Since the target is not grappled, FoM does not come into play yet. Only when using Escape Artist or grapple to escape foes FoM engage.

Regarding movement, since you are not grappled, you are free to move wherever you'd like without hindrance (doubly so since you have Freedom of Movement active). However, the weasel or stirge which is attached to you is grappling and must stay adjacent to its target. Thus the weasel/stirge goes with you, meaning you'd need to spend an action to automatically succeed on a grapple or Escape Artist check to remove the creature attached to you.