Wayang Shadow Puppeteer +?

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

I just got an eagerly-anticipated boon permitting me to play a Wayang, and one of the stronger contenders for what to do with it is the Wayang-exclusive Shadow Puppeteer Bard archetype. However, much as I like arcane magic, I've never done a Bard before and they're not completely my cup of tea as normally done, and I have a general proclivity for being different, so were I to do that, I would like to combine it with another Archetype or two. Question remaining, then, is: What other Bard archetypes are there I could combine it with? The only things Shadow Puppeteer abilities replace are Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence.

[Luke_Parry]

The following archetypes are, RAW, compatible with Shadow Puppeteer:

Arcane Duelist (APG)
Buccaneer (Pirates of the Inner Sea)
Dervish Dancer (UC)
Dirge Bard (UM)
Geisha (UM)
Lotus Geisha (Dragon Empires Primer)
Savage Skald (APG)
Songhealer (UM)

I hope that that helps :-)

[FallofCamelot]

Wayang Geisha Shadow Puppeteer?

That's a tea house to avoid...

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Dirge Bard, huh? I'll have to consider that. Thanks.

[Sarta]

I'd normally be very cautious dumping "well-versed". This is an exceptionally powerful ability for a skill-focused character. However, shadow puppetry has no well-versed benefits, so this works out.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

I'm starting to feel like I'd rather pursue the Shadowcaster Illusionist Wizard instead anyways - but I might still exploit the 1st-level retcon rule just to experiment with the souped-up Bard option to that degree. Trouble with Wayang being Bards as I see it is not only do they not get a Charisma bonus, but it'll take them FOR-EVER to get shadow magic spells other than the Puppeteering schtick, AND the monsters I could spit out with it advance in power so much more slowly. Anyone got counter-arguments, by chance?

Also, the one issue with the Shadowcaster archetype is their 5th level Shadowsight feature. For wizards of races who already have darkvision 60 feet (such as Wayangs), might this stack, or am I just getting gypped out of a bonus feat?

[Yiroep]

Agree totally. Shadow puppeteer has great flavor to it, but mechanically really doesn't stack up. Wayangs also have no bump to charisma when the main ability of the archetype has a saved based on charisma, which hurts. And the fact that there's really no way to improve the progression of the ability (which is slow as it is) and you can't really raise the DC barring charisma increases, it just rounds out to a flat archetype.

The only saving grace I can see is that at level 7 you can shadow puppeteer as a move action. Even so, it's not that great when you could also be inspiring courage as a move action if you were not this archetype.

[Sarta]

I currently play a wayang who is a shadow school specialist Wizard. I really debated going Arcane Trickster, but decided to stick with a pure caster. I also considered the Veiled Illusionist prestige class, but decided to not complicate things.

Playing an illusionist has been a great challenge. i've been trying to stick with less common spells and that has made things even more fun. I would recommend keeping Stealth maxed out. It's been very useful.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

Sounds cool...what sort of less common spells? Ever done anything with magic mouth?

Still would like to know how Shadowsight interacts with Wayang-vision.

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

*BUMP*

[I'm Hiding In Your Closet]

*onemoreforgoodluck*

[Meager Rolmug]

Haven't gamed it yet, but i created a wayang shadow puppeteer/dervish dancer. This seems an ideal combination....
1) The dervish dancer only gets to use inspire courage on himself so losing it is a much smaller penalty and his other battle dances are better anyways. However you do have to wait till level 6 to get an alternative(Rain of Blows), but up until level 6 you're only losing a +1 to hit and damage which a shadow puppet should make up for.
2) Any dervish dancer build is going to be centered around melee and the least feat intensive/bang for the buck build is going with a strong, power -attacking two handed weapon wielding PC. A reach weapon also helps out (at later levels especially) to get more attacks in while prompting MUCH fewer AoO's. Point being a Wayang may be small but does NOT have a penalty to his strength!! So all you're basically doing is trading a +1 to hit for a -1 to damage.
3) A dervish dancer does not need an especially high char and neither does the shadow puppeteer, so not having a bonus to char is also compatible.
4) A dervish dancer build probably will not include the feat precise shot or ranged feats in general, so being able to summon creatures(even wimpy ones) without using spells up seems like a rather decent alternative when going into melee is impossible or just a really bad idea.