So I've been kicking around the idea of creating a magical thief type character with the thought that I'd go into Arcane Trickster. I've read the guides on the site for the class and they confirmed what I had feared. Wizard 3/rogue 3 or Sorcerer 4/ninja 3 are pretty painful and most ATs don't really come online until later levels. Since I tend to start at level 1 I decided to try to create a trickster that would be more durable and useful during the lower levels without hurting the mid to higher power levels too much. I tried to solve the problem by creating a character that gets as many attacks as possible to maximize the benefit from sneak attack and multiple charge spells. It has the added benefit of being a bit of a debuffer as well. Tell me what you guys think / what you think I could change to make it more effective.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 10 (25 pt buy and after racial modifiers)
Traits Threatening defender, Magical knack (magus)
Arcane focus alternate racial ability
Level 1 (Magus 1) Arcane pool, cantrips, spell combat, dodge, combat expertise, weapon proficiency (whip), weapon finesse
Level 2 (Rogue 1) Sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding
Level 3 (Magus 2)Spellstrike, weapon focus whip
Level 4 (Rogue 2)Rogue talent (whip mastery), evasion
Level 5 (Magus 3)Magus arcana (arcane accuracy), extra arcana (wand wielder)
Level 6 (Magus 4)Arcane augmentation
Level 7 (Rogue 3) Sneak attack 2d6, trap sense +1, improved whip mastery
Level 8 (Magus 5) Bonus feat (combat reflexes), ability increase Int
Level 9 (Magus 6) Magus arcana (familiar), improved familiar
Level 10 (Arcane Trickster 1) Ranged legerdemain
Level 11 (Arcane Trickster 2) Sneak attack 3d6, ?Feat?
Level 12 (Arcane Trickster 3) Impromptu sneak attack 1/day, ability increase Int
Level 13 (Arcane Trickster 4) Sneak attack 4d6, ?Feat?
Level 14 (Arcane Trickster 5) Tricky spells 3/day
Level 15 (Arcane Trickster 6) Sneak attack 5d6, ?Feat?
Level 16 (Arcane Trickster 7) Impromptu sneak attack 2/day, tricky spells 4/day, ability increase Int
Level 17 (Arcane Trickster 8) Sneak attack 6d6, ?Feat?
Level 18 (Arcane Trickster 9) Invisible thief, tricky spells 5/day
Level 19 (Arcane Trickster 10) Sneak attack 7d6, surprise spells, selective spell
Level 20 (Magus 7) Knowledge pool, ability increase Int
Spire magus really makes this build work right from level 1. Offensively I’ll use a whip and a spiked gauntlet for when enemies get in too close. I’ll have 5 uses of my arcane pool to help buff my to hit which should last me through most combats. My big trick will be casting true strike and then making a trip with my whip. I have limited castings so I’ll use it sparingly on tougher foes. Outside of true strikes I will rely on cantrips and spell combat to keep in in the game.
Defensively I'm doing really well. Dodge, combat expertise and threatening defender combined with my Dex give me a 16 AC which should be comparable to my melee guy at this stage. True strike doesn’t have an arcane failure chance so I pick up a chain shirt as soon as I have the chance and I can bump my AC up to 20. Saving throws are good with a good fort and will.
Level 2
Now I no longer have the ASF chance wearing my chain shirt. My tactics are pretty much the same but I can now flank for more damage. I get an influx of skills, a boost to my weak save and I can already get the spellcasting thief “feel” of the character.
Levels 3-4
Whip mastery means I don’t provoke anymore when using the whip, I keep the spiked gauntlet for threatening and my AOO but use the whip for the rest of my attacks. I get spell strike which means I can begin mixing in occasional castings of frostbite. Each casting gives me multiple charges of 1d6+4 damage and I can use them with spellstrike to boost my damage. If both attacks hit I can get 20 avg damage in a round (2d2+2d6+8). If I can sneak attack it’s 27. I don't have a lot of castings so I still rely on my cantrips a lot. Evasion helps rounds out my defenses.
Level 5-6
Arcane accuracy lets me add my best stat to my to hit for a round. I’ll use arcane accuracy against the tougher guys or my normal enhancement ability if it’s a battle against lower CR creatures as it lasts longer. I could use both if I need to but my resources are pretty limited so I'll try not to. For my feat I’ll grab an extra arcana. Wand wielder lets me cast more often and gives me some fun abilities. I’m thinking spamming true strikes for trips or grabbing a wand of vanish for skirmishing and sneak attack. Rd 1 make attacks, use wand to vanish for defense, Rd 2 attack with SA on first hit, repeat as needed. wands are pricey at this level but the spells will be useful throughout all 20 levels.
If I don’t think I’ll have easy access to wands or if it seems more fun than I’ll grab a familiar instead. I get alertness+another feat’s worth of bonuses and on top of that I can get a *literal* skill monkey with all of my ranks. I’ll have it use tanglefoot bags to keep enemies far enough away that I can hurt them but they can’t hurt me or throw acid to add damage.
Levels 7-9
This is where the build really shines. Once I get improved whip mastery and combat reflexes I will be able to make several AOOs a round. Add a casting of frostbite, chill touch or elemental touch and I can add the damage and an effect on to each one. In theory I could cast frostbite and get 1 spell strike, take 2 normal attacks with spell strike and make 4 AOOs with spell strike for a total of 7 attacks all with 1d6 + 6 damage. That’s a possible 91 damage without sneak and 140 if I manage to get SA dice on them all (7d2+7d6+42+14(+2 weapon)(+14d6 sneak attack)). More with haste and a dex boosting item. My true strike+trip still works at this stage but it’s starting to become less effective as the enemies get larger and CMDs go up.
Defensively I’d expect an AC of around 25 or so which isn’t amazing but is decent. If I find myself outmatched I can always fight defensively to boost it and rely more on my touch spells to do damage. I could carry a mithral buckler for some extra AC when I'm not casting a spell. We’ll see if it’s effective to enchant it or not depending on how often I use it. Saves should be pretty strong across the board.
Levels 10+
I’m not really sure how to flesh out the build from here. Out of combat I should have more skills than the wiz/rogue build so I'm set there. In combat the arcane trickster levels will increase both spells and SA while allowing me more SA chances. The wizard/sorcerer builds will begin to have a noticeable spell power advantage as they get higher level spells but my extra attacks should help even that out for a while. One advantage of building towards lower level spells is that I should be able to use pearls of power and wands to keep my daily castings up.
I've got a few feat slots left but I’m not sure what’s going to be most effective. I’m thinking that I could switch to the thug archetype and pick up enforcer at level 9 (move improved familiar to 11)and that would let me add shaken and/or sickened to all those attacks with frostbite. It’s probably mechanically stronger but I kind of like having trapfinding. The AT's ½ bab is going to hurt a bit, leaving me a final bab of 12. I’m thinking it may make sense to pay for the brilliant energy enchantment and use greater magic weapon to buff my weapon every morning. Any suggestions are welcome.
I don't remember but can a magus cast mage hand?
If its not on his list he can take spell blending and pick it up..
Just a suggestion, but 3 levels of vivisectionist get u ur +2d6 per-req and is much better than rogue.. u get a mutagen and a couple extracts instead.... Way Better... Another suggestion would be 3 levels of Ninja.. Swift Invis.. I would do Alchy though, as it melds better with int caster stat..
Just a suggestion, but 3 levels of vivisectionist get u ur +2d6 per-req and is much better than rogue.. u get a mutagen and a couple extracts instead.... Way Better... Another suggestion would be 3 levels of Ninja.. Swift Invis.. I would do Alchy though, as it melds better with int caster stat..
I looked at the Viv. and for this build it was pretty lackluster and less useful than the rogue.
Viv:
Alchemy- a small bonus to a skill i won't use too often.
brew potion- expensive and not going to be used often
mutagen - useful but short term
throw anything- useful at lower levels for a ranged touch attack but expensive long term and becomes less valuable as you level
2d6 Sneak Attack- same as rogue
Discovery- I didn't love any for this build. Tumor familar doesn't level enough to take improved familiar. vestigial arm is nice but not really fitting in flavor.
poison use, poison resistance +2, nice but poisons are too expensive to use often.
Torturer’s Eye- useless
Cruel Anatomist- saves some skill points
extracts- useful at low levels but limited caster level and castings
means they fade in usefulness at mid level
Rogue-
2d6 sneak - same as viv.
trapfinding- useful and fits flavor
trap sense- a small bonus
Skills- 12 more skill points and 5 more class skills= 27 more ranks that's pretty big for a skill monkey
Evasion- It's a dex build which makes this very strong
Talent- Combat feat means that I can get whip master/improved whip master/combat reflexes 1-2 levels earlier.
The combat feat, skills, and evasion are all abilities that will be useful through all 20 levels. The Viv. is stronger in the first few levels but fades later.
I think ur selling the alchemist a little short.. As a vivisectionist u can take bleeding attack as ur discovery.. 30mins is hard considered a "short" buff and +4 dex/+2na is blamo, esp. since it stacks with everything.. There are afew extracts that stay great at all levels, shield, reduce person, and true strike will always be useful in fights.. I have no arguement vs the skill points/evasion except that i think the buffs u get from alchy far outway a few skill points and evasion can be purchased with a ring.. Disable device is called Summon Monster 1 and u have detect magic and perception to locate them..
I like the vivisectionist for a lot of builds that are roguish, I just think rogue edges it out here:
Bleeding attack: +1 per SA die isn't that great. Most combats don't last more than 4-5 rounds and if i'm getting SA damage I'd expect that particular enemy won't last more than 1-2. Best case scenario I get +7 damage for 5 rounds for 35 total damage at 20th level. Considering how situational it is to get it in the first place plus how rare it is to have fights last very long the couple of points of bleed are just not worth it.
mutagens: Since I already have an 18 dex i already max out my light armor. I'd use it for con and get extra hit points. 30 minutes of 2xlevel hitpoints and 2 natural armor isn't bad but it's not a game changer. I expect evasion will save me far more hit points in the long run.
shield/enlarge/reduce person/ truestrike: By taking the combat trick as a rogue I'm able to sneak in a feat to get wand wielder arcana 4 levels earlier than a Viv build. This means I can get a wand of these spells and either buff before the fight or use them in combination with a full attack with spell combat. The ability to save on action economy in combat is worth it's weight in gold.
Summon monster as trap springer: setting off traps is loud, disabling them is quiet. I also don't have it on my list so I'd need to UMD a wand to use it. Without a strong CHA bonus the chances of hitting that 20 DC at low levels is pretty slim. Not to mention summoning an animal to spring a trap is pretty much against the whole "smooth criminal" flavor of the class.
Arcane trickster as a base class would be sandman bard.