I'm not going to change things in my current campaign, but I'm becomming unenamored of how iterative attacks seem to be dominating tactics. I would much prefer that the PCs and monsters use mobility and positioning to their advantages rather than standing still so that they can get in their four attacks per round. The multiple attacks are really bogging down the pace of my game-- especially since in every big fight, the wizard casts haste!
I'd like to set things so that on a full attack, anyone could hit a bit harder than normal, or do something else that's cool, but no longer make multiple strikes per round. (Unless you had feats like Whirlwind Attack, or Cleave, or something like that.)
At the same time, I don't want to take away too much from the martial classes.
I was thinking along the lines of the following...
When a character makes a Full Attack action, for every +5 of his or her BAB, he takes an additional +2 to hit and damage, and all hits do double the damage dice. (e.g. a greatsword would do 4d6 damage).
Of course, this mostly duplicates Vital Strike. However, it greatly increases the liklihood that PCs would take feats that do allow extra attacks, like TWF, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc.
Thoughts? Has anyone else come up with something along the same lines that is working for you?
I'm not having too much luck playtesting it (because I've got a really, really small group - aka my wife and I - and no one on the boards seems so inclined), but from my limited experience with some ideas I had for the action economy work fairly enough for us. Due to high skill/social-focused nature of our games, however, and the fact that we're rather constantly interrupted by a toddler, there is an amount of hand-waving involved in such things in our games.
Otherwise, the gist of your idea sounds good, though the "auto-deal double damage dice" sounds surprisingly strong for an at-will thing.
One other idea, is to grant something that reflects the tendency for iterative attacks to reduce in effectiveness as time goes on. I'm not sure how, exactly, but maybe something like gaining the following:
- At +6 base attack: gain an additional +6 on all attack and damage effects
- At +11 base attack: gain an additional +4 on all attack and damage effects
- At +16 base attack: gain an additional +2 on all attack and damage effects
Or something like that. The above effects replace the iteratives, are added before the roll is made, are multiplied on a critical and are cumulative with each other (for a total of +12 on attack and damage at +16 BAB, for a basic bonus of +28 plus modifiers, for example).
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The game is pretty much built around multiple attacks. Removing them would require alot of careful consideration and alot of playtesting. I would probably start with the book of nine sword from 3.5. Each of those manuevers was supposed to be a little less effective then a full attack. Heck you could probably allow martial characters to take the manuevers and be nearly done. Cool things already created that you can do as a standard action instead of full attacking.
I'm not going to change things in my current campaign, but I'm becomming unenamored of how iterative attacks seem to be dominating tactics. I would much prefer that the PCs and monsters use mobility and positioning to their advantages rather than standing still so that they can get in their four attacks per round. The multiple attacks are really bogging down the pace of my game-- especially since in every big fight, the wizard casts haste!
I'd like to set things so that on a full attack, anyone could hit a bit harder than normal, or do something else that's cool, but no longer make multiple strikes per round. (Unless you had feats like Whirlwind Attack, or Cleave, or something like that.)
At the same time, I don't want to take away too much from the martial classes.
I was thinking along the lines of the following...
When a character makes a Full Attack action, for every +5 of his or her BAB, he takes an additional +2 to hit and damage, and all hits do double the damage dice. (e.g. a greatsword would do 4d6 damage).
Of course, this mostly duplicates Vital Strike. However, it greatly increases the liklihood that PCs would take feats that do allow extra attacks, like TWF, Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, etc.
Thoughts? Has anyone else come up with something along the same lines that is working for you?
Hey Haladir, I didn't try quite what you were suggesting but I did attempted something similar in my game a while back. Instead of iterative attacks, I used the following rules making it easier to score critical hits:
While this did have the effect of speeding up the round, it made encounters last way too long. I don't think what you are suggesting will necessarily break the game and if you try it out, I would be interested to hear how it pans out.
I'm not going to change things in my current campaign, but I'm becomming unenamored of how iterative attacks seem to be dominating tactics. I would much prefer that the PCs and monsters use mobility and positioning to their advantages rather than standing still
...Thoughts? Has anyone else come up with something along the same lines that is working for you?
Star Wars Saga Edition removed iterative attacks from the classes: you received one attack per round and gained a +X bonus to damage (where X = 1/2 your character level). Additionally, feats were added in to allow for additional attacks (two-weapon fighting 1,2,3) or bonus damage (rapid strike, double attack). The pace of combat was a bit faster, though damage felt very similar on average.
I've always felt that the main issue with iterative attacks was the modifiers (+16/+11/+6/+1). Each iterative attack has its own modifier to factor in, changing the attack calculation with each roll. That's what really slows me and my players down.
I do think that Star Wars SAGA Edition had a great idea about offering multiple attacks with the same modifier to all attacks that round (like Rapid Shot).
Something I've been wanting to try out:
You gain one additional attack at your highest BAB when making a full-attack, but all attacks that round take a -5 penalty to attack roll (stacks with TWF or FoB penalties).
You can make a single attack as a full-attack action, but you gain the benefits of the Vital Strike feat for free (one attack roll, roll damage dice twice).
You gain up to two additional attacks at your highest BAB when making a full-attack, but all attacks that round take a -10 penalty to attack roll (stacks with TWF or FoB penalties).
You can make a single attack as a full-attack action, but you gain the benefits of the Improved Vital Strike feat for free (one attack roll, roll damage dice three times).
You gain up to three additional attacks at your highest BAB when making a full-attack, but all attacks that round take a -15 penalty to attack roll (stacks with TWF or FoB penalties).
You can make a single attack as a full-attack action, but you gain the benefits of the Greater Vital Strike feat for free (one attack roll, roll damage dice four times).
The only reason I haven't been able to test this yet is because my groups rarely make it passed level 8 before we start a new game or form a new group. I do think, however, that this system would definitely help speed things up in combat at higher levels though.
I was also toying with the idea of modifying the spell casting system too, to help balance out action economy for martials vs casters:
This concentration penalty would be something like -2 or -3, and the caster's effective caster level is reduced by one-half (A 10th level caster would be considered a 5th level caster when casting as a standard action; a 10th-level fireball, cast as a standard action, would deal 5d6 damage instead of 10d6).
This change isn't as complete or well thought out, and again, has never been tested, but in theory it would keep damage counts about the same for both types of characters.
A fighter (with greatsword [2d6+3 damage], +2 Strength modifier) vs a wizard (casting fireball [10d6 damage]), at 11th level.
Fighter's Full-Attack:
- Three attacks (at -10 each, To Hit = +3, assuming all attacks hit): Avg damage = 10 + 10 + 10 = 30
- OR -
- Single Imp Vital Strike: Avg damage (6d6+3) = 24
Fighter's Standard Attack:
- Single attack: Avg damage (2d6+3) = 10
Wizard Full-Attack:
- Fireball: Avg damage (10d6) = 33, 16 on save
Wizard Standard Attack:
- Fireball: Avg damage (5d6) = 17, 8 on save
Why not attack the problem from the other side?
Instead of trying to muck about with multiple attacks as full actions, why not make multiple attacks available on standard actions? That way full attacks lose some of their emphasis.
Something like this:
At level 6: As a standard action, allow two attacks as in a full action, but all at -3 to hit, or one single attack at +2 to hit and damage.
At level 11: As a standard action, allow three attacks as in a full action, but all at -3 to hit, or two attacks as the first two iterative attacks, but at -1 to hit, or a single attack at +4 to hit and damage.
AT level 16: As a standard action, allow four attacks as in a full action, but all at -3 to hit, or three attacks as the first three iterative attacks, but at -1 to hit, or two attacks as the first two iterative attacks, at +1 to hit and damage, or a single attack at +6 to hit and damage.
Or how about this:
On a standard action you can make half as many attacks as on a full action, dropping every other attack in your sequence. Hence if you attack for +15/+10/+5, you get +15 and +5. If you attack for +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2 then you get +12/+7/+2. TWFers alternate attacks between their weapons.
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The Trailblazer system caps you at two attacks per round (unless you're two weapon fighting), but keeps the overall odds of hitting and damage output per round pretty much the same.
• At BAB +6 = two attacks, both at -2 (so +4/+4 instead of +6/+1)
• At BAB +11 = two attacks, both at -1 (so +10/+10 instead of +11/+6/+1)
• At BAB +16 = two attacks, both at -0 (so +16/+16 instead of +16/+11/+6/+1)
Fewer attack but a better chance of hitting, plus, they're both at the same + so less math to slow the game down.
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I was also going to suggest that, instead of an iterative attack at BAB+6/+11/+16, just give them the appropriate Vital Strike feat for that BAB. If you're concerned about their damage output versus what they would normally be capable of, then modifiy the VS feats to grant multiples of bonus damage in addition to the damage dice.
Alternatively, you could add their BAB at those increments to their weapon damage, so at BAB+6, they would get +6 damage, etc. Or, you could grant them a flat bonus di roll, like +1d6 at BAB+6/etc.
-Skeld
