Murder Holes


Rules Questions


what is the defense bonus when attacking from murdur holes, arrow slits and just for the sake of argument... through a grated barrier like a prison bars.

in other words

I cast cast a spell / spill oil / shoot an arrow through a murder hole or arrow slit (different things i know but lets murge them for game purposes.

would i get +2 defense because its cover that i can attack around, +4 defense because even though i can attach through it its a specialized structure giving me that benefit or is it documented somewhere to provide an even better bonus.

suppose I am in a cage fighting some one on the outside. the cage is large (5x10 prison cell) but i am swapping from weapon to weapon first a mace (large swings) then a spear (thrusting weapon) then a bow.

pathfinder does not really take into account how you use the weapon (except maybe in water conditions) so I dont think there is a difference between using the mace or spear but is there a difference for the bow? and if you were running the game would you consider a benefit to the swinging weapon vs the thrusting weapon in this special circumstance?


If I recall correctly, casting a spell through a hole requires a 1 square foot opening. This really doesn't answer any of your questions, but might be relevant.


From the PRD:

Quote:
Walls with Arrow Slits: Walls with arrow slits can be made of any durable material but are most commonly masonry, hewn stone, or wood. Such a wall allows defenders to fire arrows or crossbow bolts at intruders from behind the safety of the wall. Archers behind arrow slits have improved cover that gives them a +8 bonus to Armor Class, a +4 bonus on Reflex saves, and the benefits of the improved evasion class feature.

And if a Fireball can be fired through an arrow slit (its in the spell description), then other spells should be able to as well.


In the cage I would say both attacker and defender would have cover to show that their is bars in the way, now when it comes to ranged attacks I would have to say you can make the attack with out any modifers but if someone was next to you they would still get to attack you but I would still say you still have cover, ranged attacks aimed at you I would say you would have cover too. When it comes to the murdder holes I would say that you would have improved cover but your targets would not have any cover.

Scarab Sages

Arrowslits and murder holes would provide:

Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.

Now the only question is what should the modifier be in your particular case. It sounds like a DM ruling but i would say typical bars would provide normal cover, where as a fence like mesh may provide improved cover. The GM may even modify by the type of attack. i.e. slashing weapons go against improved cover, piercing goes against standard cover, etc.

Depending on the actions I would put the modifier between +2 an +8, yes I know that's a large range, but there could be several things affecting it.


just like to hash these things out before brining them up in battle.

did not know there was a solid rule for it (i was only going to grant +4 ^_^)

my players will hate this battle LOL

(note: my players hating the battle usually means an hour of back slapping and bragging over how they overcame it.


If you are going to use murder holes, you should go the whole nine yards and put oil-soaked straw on the floor in the area targeted by the murder holes and have one of your NPCs toss a lit torch into the area. That's always good for some extra fun.

When that's not enough to get the party excited I tend to drop a big stone behind them just to keep them close and handy.


nope. its not even my own evil creation. its an adventure path.

traps on the floor so as the players charge forward to break down the doors to get to the archers... they take arrow attacks.

on a side note... is "searching for traps" a special condition?

what I mean is... I tend to not give players the benefit of the doubt when searching for traps.

just because a guy has a high perception does not mean he auto finds every trap within sight.

they have to actively say "I check the doorway for traps"

this appears to be the official ruling.

with that in mind is a person "checking for traps" considered flatfooted as they carefully search for switches and trip wires?

if not flat footed do they take a penalty to the search as they are not paying full attention to the search? (as in say running down a hallway, dodging arrows and hoping not to trip a wire)


blue_the_wolf wrote:

just because a guy has a high perception does not mean he auto finds every trap within sight.

they have to actively say "I check the doorway for traps"

this appears to be the official ruling.

Yup. That's how most people I've ever gamed with run it as well.

The exception would be if someone had the rogue Trapspotter talent or something equivalent (like dwarven stonecunning for stone traps) which provide an automatic check if the character gets within a certain range of the trap. Barring something like that, they actually have to actively search for traps by explicitly saying so.

Quoted from the d20PFSRD sidebar under Perception: "The Trap Spotter rogue talent is a good way to gain an auto-spot ability for traps in the game. Normally, you can't autospot traps like this. A player has to specifically state that they're looking for traps."

blue_the_wolf wrote:
with that in mind is a person "checking for traps" considered flatfooted as they carefully search for switches and trip wires?

I'm not aware of any rule that would make them flat footed while searching for traps or while disabling them. No real reason they should be as they are aware of the threat. However...

blue_the_wolf wrote:
if not flat footed do they take a penalty to the search as they are not paying full attention to the search? (as in say running down a hallway, dodging arrows and hoping not to trip a wire)

There ARE rules for imposition of specific penalties for such circumstances under the perception skill. "Creature making check is distracted" is a +5 DC modifier (this pretty much certainly will apply in this circumstance).

"Unfavorable conditions" imposes a +2 DC modifier, and "terrible conditions" imposes a +5 modifier (one of these may also apply under this circumstance, especially if there's vision impairment like smoke, fire, darkness, etc. although the degree of penalty will be up to the GM to decide).

Also, don't forget the standard +1 DC per 10 feet away distance penalty for any perception check.

Finally, since they will be in imminent danger, there is no taking 10 for any skill checks made while under fire.

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