| Abrisene |
Fighter Changes
Intent: To address issues regarding lack of utility out of combat, and to hopefully bring combat ability up to that of at least a partial Caster. There is an emphasis on melee, fighting Casters, and having armor play a more important role.
This post only lists changes to the existing Fighter.
Items list with * have been altered, or are new.
=====================
Previous:
Rogue Changes
=====================
Everything is an Extraordinary Ability unless otherwise noted.
HD d10
Use Stealth changes:
Paizo Blog: Stealth Playtest
Skills:
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
=====================
LVL / BAB / Fo / Re / Wi
-----------------------------
. 01 / 01 / 02 / 00 / 00 --- *Battle Ready, Bonus Feat
. 02 / 02 / 03 / 00 / 00 --- Bravery +1, Bonus Feat
. 03 / 03 / 03 / 01 / 01 --- *Armor Training +1, *Armor Expertise v1
. 04 / 04 / 04 / 01 / 01 --- *Dragoon v1, Bonus Feat
. 05 / 05 / 04 / 01 / 01 --- *Weapon Training +1
. 06 / 06 / 05 / 02 / 02 --- *Sacrifice Guard, Bravery +2, Bonus Feat
. 07 / 07 / 05 / 02 / 02 --- *Armor Training +2, *Armor Expertise v2
. 08 / 08 / 06 / 02 / 02 --- *Dragoon v2, Bonus Feat
. 09 / 09 / 06 / 03 / 03 --- *Mettle, *Weapon Training +2
. 10 / 10 / 07 / 03 / 03 --- *Battle Hardened, Bravery +3, Bonus Feat
. 11 / 11 / 07 / 03 / 03 --- *Armor Training +3, *Armor Expertise v3
. 12 / 12 / 08 / 04 / 04 --- *Dragoon v3, Bonus Feat
. 13 / 13 / 08 / 04 / 04 --- *Weapon Training +3
. 14 / 14 / 09 / 04 / 04 --- *Menace, Bravery +4, Bonus Feat
. 15 / 15 / 09 / 05 / 05 --- *Armor Training +4, *Armor Expertise v4
. 16 / 16 / 10 / 05 / 05 --- *Dragoon v4, Bonus Feat
. 17 / 17 / 10 / 05 / 05 --- *Weapon Training +4
. 18 / 18 / 11 / 06 / 06 --- *Improved Mettle, Bravery +5, Bonus Feat
. 19 / 19 / 11 / 06 / 06 --- *Armor Mastery
. 20 / 20 / 12 / 06 / 06 --- Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat
=====================
Battle Ready: 1
Once each day, with an hour’s worth of work, the Fighter can repair a single set of armor and one shield with the Broken Condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a set of armor and one shield. This ability can only be used on armor or shields that were Broken while used by the Fighter.
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Armor Training: 3, 7, 11, and 15
When the Fighter is wearing armor, this bonus reduces the Armor Check Penalty by the listed amount and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by the Fighter's armor by the same amount.
=====================
Armor Expertise: 3, 7, 11, and 15
3 The Fighter can move at normal speed while wearing Medium Armor.
7 The Fighter can move at normal speed while wearing Heavy Armor.
11 The Fighter gains Evasion while having a shield equipped. This does not work with a Buckler.
15 The Fighter gains Evasion when wearing Medium or Heavy Armor, or Improved Evasion if using a shield.
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Dragoon: 4, 8, 12, 16
4 The Fighter gains a Bonus to Sense Motive when an opponent attempts to Feint equal to half the Fighter's Level. The Fighter also adds their Dexterity Modifier to the DC of any attempt to use Acrobatics or Cast Defensively by opponents in squares Threatened by the Fighter.
8 Whenever a Fighter moves 10 feet or more during any Action that involves a Melee Attack, the Action deals extra Damage equal to the base Armor Bonus of the armor worn by the Fighter if the Attack hits, excluding any other bonus to the efficacy of the armor worn. This bonus is not Precision Damage, and is multiplied on a Critical Hit.
12 The Base Speed of a Fighter, during any Action that involves a Melee Attack, is increased by an amount equal to the Fighter's Strength Modifier times 5. The Fighter must move at least 10 feet during this Action to receive this Bonus. This is a Competence Bonus.
16 Any Group chosen by the Fighter for Weapon Training has its Damage Die increased by one step, as if by an increase in Size.
=====================
Weapon Training: 5, and every 4 Levels after.
The Fighter also adds this bonus to any Combat Maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against Combat Maneuvers made by weapons from this group.
=====================
Sacrifice Guard: 6
The Fighter may choose to have the Damage of an Attack that does Hit Point Damage instead deal its Damage to the Fighter's armor or shield. If this is enough Damage to cause the armor or shield to be Broken, the remainder to the Damage is applied to the Fighter. This ability may not be used if the Fighter's armor is already Broken. This is a Free Action that be be used only once each round when not Flat Footed, and a number of times each day equal to 1 + the Fighter's Dexterity Modifier (minimum 1). Only when using this ability, the armor or shield used by the Fighter gains a bonus to Hardness equal to half of the Fighters level. This ability may be used when the Fighter's armor or shield are hit by a Sunder Combat Maneuver.
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Mettle: 9
If the Fighter makes a successful Fortitude or Will Saving Throw against an effect that normally has a reduced effect on a successful save, the Fighter instead takes no effect. A Helpless Fighter does not gain the benefit of Mettle.
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Battle Hardened: 10
A Fighter wearing armor gains a Bonus to Armor Class equal to the Fighter's Constitution Modifier when an opponent is rolling to confirm a Critical Hit on the Fighter.
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Menace: 14
When the Fighter hits with a Critical Hit, the target is unable to Cast Defensively until the beginning of the Fighter's next turn.
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Improved Mettle: 18
The Fighter's Mettle ability improves. The Fighter still receives no effect on a successful Fortitude or Will save, but henceforth takes only receives the reduced effect on a failed Saving Throw. A Helpless Fighter does not gain the benefit of Improved Mettle.
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Armor Mastery: 19
The Fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/- whenever the Fighter is wearing armor or using a shield. This ability stacks with other sources of Damage Reduction, and is not applied twice if using both.
=====================
Thank you,
Feedback is welcome.
GeneticDrift
|
Battle ready should probably say it is restored to full HP and if the hour can be broken up or not.
In many sections it says, "during any Action that involves a Melee Attack" do you mean charge or that if you move at least 10' and attack that round? I can't think of an abuse off the top of my head but there might be a way to move 10' and full attack.
Dragoon 12 seems oddly worded.
I like the additions!
| MrSin |
Erm... How does this give the fighter the versatality of the casters? Most of his skills are still numbers and realted to combat. The fighter doesn't have too much of a problem in combat as far as I know. What hurts is the weak saves, skill points, and only class features being numbers and feats that just can't be as good as class features. Thats my opinion anyway.
4+ skillpoints is nice though. He has 2 weak saves still and is suddenly forced to wear a shield for a class feature. I'm not sure if that should ever happen unless its an archetype made to specialize in something.
| mplindustries |
Change #1 to compete with casters: spend feats on more than just DPR
Change #2 to compete with casters: Int is not a dump stat.
Change #3 to compete with casters: think outside the box.
Did you forget Change #4: Acquire spellcasting? Because that's kind of the only way to compete the way things stand now.
Anyway, these fixes are fine, but I don't see how they do anything to help a Fighter's versatility--they're all just combat changes, which is the area in which Fighters are currently best off. They really, desperately, need help in the non-combat realm.
| Abrisene |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighter Changes (EDITED)
Intent: To address issues regarding lack of utility out of combat, and to hopefully bring combat ability up to that of at least a partial Caster. There is an emphasis on melee, fighting Casters, and having armor play a more important role.
This post only lists changes to the existing Fighter.
Items list with * have been altered, or are new.
=====================
Previous:
Rogue Changes
=====================
Everything is an Extraordinary Ability unless otherwise noted.
HD d10
Use Stealth changes:
Paizo Blog: Stealth Playtest
Skills:
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Added Skill: Heal
=====================
LVL / BAB / Fo / Re / Wi
-----------------------------
. 01 / 01 / 02 / 00 / 00 --- *Battle Ready, Bonus Feat
. 02 / 02 / 03 / 00 / 00 --- Bravery +1, Bonus Feat
. 03 / 03 / 03 / 01 / 01 --- *Coerce, *Armor Training +1, *Armor Expertise v1
. 04 / 04 / 04 / 01 / 01 --- *Dragoon v1, Bonus Feat
. 05 / 05 / 04 / 01 / 01 --- *Weapon Training +1
. 06 / 06 / 05 / 02 / 02 --- *Sacrifice Guard, Bravery +2, Bonus Feat
. 07 / 07 / 05 / 02 / 02 --- *Armor Training +2, *Armor Expertise v2
. 08 / 08 / 06 / 02 / 02 --- *Dragoon v2, Bonus Feat
. 09 / 09 / 06 / 03 / 03 --- *Mettle, *Weapon Training +2
. 10 / 10 / 07 / 03 / 03 --- *Battle Hardened, Bravery +3, Bonus Feat
. 11 / 11 / 07 / 03 / 03 --- *Armor Training +3, *Armor Expertise v3
. 12 / 12 / 08 / 04 / 04 --- *Dragoon v3, Bonus Feat
. 13 / 13 / 08 / 04 / 04 --- *Weapon Training +3
. 14 / 14 / 09 / 04 / 04 --- *Menace, Bravery +4, Bonus Feat
. 15 / 15 / 09 / 05 / 05 --- *Armor Training +4, *Armor Expertise v4
. 16 / 16 / 10 / 05 / 05 --- *Dragoon v4, Bonus Feat
. 17 / 17 / 10 / 05 / 05 --- *Weapon Training +4
. 18 / 18 / 11 / 06 / 06 --- *Improved Mettle, Bravery +5, Bonus Feat
. 19 / 19 / 11 / 06 / 06 --- *Armor Mastery
. 20 / 20 / 12 / 06 / 06 --- Weapon Mastery, Bonus Feat
=====================
Battle Ready: 1
With an hour’s worth of work, the Fighter can repair a single set of armor and one shield with the Broken Condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a set of armor and one shield without interfering with the rest. This ability can be used any number of times each day, and can only be used on armor or shields that were Broken while used by the Fighter. This does not work on Destroyed items. An item repaired in this manner is restored to full Hit Points.
=====================
Coerce: 3
If the Fighter uses First Aid of the Healing Skill to save a Dying enemy, and then uses Intimidate to Influence Attitude on the same enemy within one hour, the Fighter gains a bonus on the Intimidate check equal to the Fighter's Intelligence Bonus (Minimum 1).
=====================
Armor Training: 3, 7, 11, and 15
When the Fighter is wearing armor, this bonus reduces the Armor Check Penalty by the listed amount and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by the Fighter's armor by the same amount.
=====================
Armor Expertise: 3, 7, 11, and 15
3 The Fighter can move at normal speed while wearing Medium Armor.
7 The Fighter can move at normal speed while wearing Heavy Armor.
11 The Fighter gains Evasion while having a shield equipped. This does not work with a Buckler.
15 The Fighter gains Evasion when wearing Medium or Heavy Armor, or Improved Evasion if using a shield.
=====================
Dragoon: 4, 8, 12, 16
4 The Fighter gains a Bonus to Sense Motive when an opponent attempts to Feint equal to the Fighter's Intelligence Modifier. The Fighter also adds their Intelligence Modifier to the DC of any attempt to use Acrobatics or Cast Defensively by opponents in squares Threatened by the Fighter.
8 Whenever a Fighter moves 10 feet or more during any Action that involves a Melee Attack (Charge, Spring Attack, etc.), the Action deals extra Damage equal to the base Armor Bonus of the armor worn by the Fighter if the Attack hits, excluding any other bonus to the efficacy of the armor worn. This bonus is not Precision Damage, and is multiplied on a Critical Hit. This damage may only be applied once each Action.
The Fighter may Charge an inanimate object and attempt a Strength check as the Attack. A bonus of +2 is granted from Charging, with an additional Bonus equal to the base Armor Bonus of the armor worn by the Fighter. If the Strength Check succeeds in destroying the object, the Fighter may continue the rest of the movement allowed the Charge.
12 The Base Speed of a Fighter, during any Action that involves an Attack(Charge, Spring Attack, Shot on the Run, etc.), is increased by an amount equal to the Fighter's Strength Modifier times 5. The Fighter must move at least 10 feet during this Action to receive this Bonus. This is a Competence Bonus.
16 Any Group chosen by the Fighter for Weapon Training has its Damage Die increased by one step, as if by an increase in Size.
=====================
Weapon Training: 5, and every 4 Levels after.
The Fighter also adds this bonus to any Combat Maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against Combat Maneuvers made by weapons from this group.
=====================
Sacrifice Guard: 6
The Fighter may choose to have the Damage of an Attack that does Hit Point Damage instead deal its Damage to the Fighter's armor or shield. If this is enough Damage to cause the armor or shield to be Broken, the remainder to the Damage is applied to the Fighter. This ability may not be used if the Fighter's armor is already Broken. This is a Free Action that be be used only once each round when not Flat Footed, and a number of times each day equal 1 + the Fighter's Dexterity Modifier (Minimum 1). Only when using this ability, the armor or shield used by the Fighter gains a bonus to Hardness equal to half of the Fighters level. This ability may be used when the Fighter's armor or shield are hit by a Sunder Combat Maneuver.
=====================
Mettle: 9
If the Fighter makes a successful Fortitude or Will Saving Throw against an effect that normally has a reduced effect on a successful save, the Fighter instead takes no effect. A Helpless Fighter does not gain the benefit of Mettle.
=====================
Battle Hardened: 10
A Fighter wearing armor gains a Bonus to Armor Class equal to the Fighter's Intelligence Modifier when an opponent is rolling to confirm a Critical Hit on the Fighter.
=====================
Menace: 14
When the Fighter hits with a Critical Hit, the target is unable to Cast Defensively until the beginning of the Fighter's next turn.
=====================
Improved Mettle: 18
The Fighter's Mettle ability improves. The Fighter still receives no effect on a successful Fortitude or Will save, but henceforth only receives the reduced effect on a failed Saving Throw. A Helpless Fighter does not gain the benefit of Improved Mettle.
=====================
Armor Mastery: 19
The Fighter gains Damage Reduction 5/- whenever the Fighter is wearing armor or using a shield. This ability stacks with other sources of Damage Reduction, and is not applied twice if using both.
*********************
EDITS
*********************
Added Heal as a Class Skill
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Battle Ready: 1
Changed to usable every rest of at least one hour. Clarified HP gain.
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Coerce: 3
Added out of combat interaction using Intelligence.
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Dragoon:
4 Changed mechanic to run off of Intelligence.
8 Provided examples, exempted Pounce abuse, and included non combat use.
12 Provided examples.
---------------------
Weapon Training:
The only change made to how it's listed in the Core Book, is to allow the bonus to apply versus all incoming weapon based Combat Maneuvers, rather than just Disarm and Sunder.
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Battle Hardened:
Changed to work off of Intelligence
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On having to wear a shield:
A Core Book Fighter already needs to use Medium or Heavy Armor to gain the benefit of being able to move at full speed. If you are wearing Light Armor, then the upgrades at those levels are pointless.
---------------------
On weak saves:
Able to get both Improved Evasion, and Improved Mettle.
---------------------
Armor Mastery: 19
Sacrifice Guard is already very powerful, as it can reduce elemental damage, negate precision damage, and negate criticals. It allows greater protection, but must be used before knowing the damage, and only a limited number of times each day. Having an untypes DR scale through the levels seems overkill.
---------------------
Why oh why can I not edit my post?
| Umbranus |
You should change things like dragoon from int modifier to int bonus. Class abilities should not make you worse at something.
Another Idea for balancing the fighter with other classes:
Instead of adding so many bonuses to the fighter, most of which increase the combat potential I would give him the following ability:
Versatility:
Fighters learn to adapt to the requirements of a multitude of situations. After some time that allows him to fulfill a great variety of tasks.
Starting at fourth level the fighter gains the ability to simulate other classes' abilities. Once per day, each morning the fighter can spend some time contemplating about the nesseseties of the situation at hand. After that time he can choose any one class abilitiy another class gets at a level of up to half his fighter level that is not spellcasting.
At 8th level the fighter also learns one feat that directly modifies this class ability. The versatility ability can be used to fulfill requirements.
Examples:
A level 4 fighter could gain the smite evil ability as a level 2 paladin.
Or he could gain the alchemist's poison use ability.
I'm still thinking about further reducing the level of ability availiable by ability type. Something like half fighter level for (ex), half fighter level -1 for (su) and half fighter level -2 for (sl).
| drbuzzard |
I do quite like the battle ready ability. That's a good way for a fighter to be less dependent on a caster having mend or make whole available. That really is an example of the kind of solution needed for fighter deficiencies.
As others have said, however, most of the suggestions are pure combat, so I'm not really sure how needed they are. Sure, we can take the track that if the fighter is way over the top in combat, it makes up for their general lack of utility. I'm not really sure that is generally what is seen as the solution.
I'm fully in support of the 4 skill points per level, but without an improvement in the class skill list, it's fairly moot. What I would suggest is something like:
Skills: 4 +(int bonus) per level. In addition to their set class skills, fighters can designate 3 more skills as class skills at first level. These cannot be changed once chosen. <this number can be debated, but 3 seems reasonable, and allows for a lot of flexibility>
The other area I think fighters need help is saves, and while giving them mettle (and evasion) is extremely nice, it may be too nice. Though that can be debated. What I would advocate is that as fighters are the most mundane of all classes, they should have the best saves. This is based on a scale of full casters on one extreme of the scale (where they only get a single strong save) to the other end without casting where you get better saves, HP, BAB, and AC. I would have the fighter with a strong fortitude save, and then allow them to pick one other save to be strong in addition.
Artanthos
|
Artanthos wrote:Change #1 to compete with casters: spend feats on more than just DPR
Change #2 to compete with casters: Int is not a dump stat.
Change #3 to compete with casters: think outside the box.
Did you forget Change #4: Acquire spellcasting? Because that's kind of the only way to compete the way things stand now.
Anyway, these fixes are fine, but I don't see how they do anything to help a Fighter's versatility--they're all just combat changes, which is the area in which Fighters are currently best off. They really, desperately, need help in the non-combat realm.
Any class has access to spellcasting if desired.
My straight fighter build performs well both in and out of combat and manages up to 6th level spells of any class without batting an eye.
*I really should update her profile, changing out improved bull rush for skill focus: umd.
| Big Lemon |
mplindustries wrote:Artanthos wrote:Change #1 to compete with casters: spend feats on more than just DPR
Change #2 to compete with casters: Int is not a dump stat.
Change #3 to compete with casters: think outside the box.
Did you forget Change #4: Acquire spellcasting? Because that's kind of the only way to compete the way things stand now.
Anyway, these fixes are fine, but I don't see how they do anything to help a Fighter's versatility--they're all just combat changes, which is the area in which Fighters are currently best off. They really, desperately, need help in the non-combat realm.
Any class has access to spellcasting if desired.
The best fighters are ones that pretend to be weak wizards with wands until you get close to them and then take a warhammer to the skull.