In other threads it has said that technically under the rules of immediate actions, Feather Fall cannot use it's implied function, because if you are caught flat-footed (e.g a pit trap) you cannot take immediate actions, hence you cannot use feather fall in this case. Most Gms, however, rule that you can, as it is the implied usage of the spell.
I thought I would get that out the way just in case it comes up.
Anyway, here is the scenario under which I ask my question:
I am playing a sylph character in a home game, and I was wondering how I could use my feather fall natural ability. Since Feather Fall the spell is an immediate action, so is the ability, and since she is only first level, I would only work for 60 ft.
In all of these situations I am aware of the fact that I am falling before the fall happens and am not flat footed, or am jumping intentionally.
Situation 1:
Let's say I jump off a 400ft. cliff. I'm not sure how fast I would fall according to the falling rules, but I would assume it's at least a round or two. Since she can fall 60 ft. safely, she would obviously take quite a bit of damage if sh activated it immediately, as she would still fall 340 ft. but since it is such a long fall, could I ready an action to activate the ability when I am 60ft. or closer to the ground?
Situation 2:
Let's say I'm jumping off a roof and the ground is 80 ft. away. I could activate my ability immediately, and still fall 20 ft, a survivable fall. But as with before, could I use it after I've fall 20 ft. or more and take no damage? Or would I still take damage from falling 20 ft even if I do use it in this manner?
Please help!
1) Generally people do what you suggest, and activate the ability when nearer the ground. Only a jerk GM will put massive pressure on you about it. If your character has the ability, presumably they know how to use it effectively.
2) Activate it after the 20ft. Once active the spell slows you down, causing no damage - the momentum isn't "saved up" for later - so it negates that 20ft, and then prevents the remaining 60ft from hurting you.
Both of these are the standard way to play it, as I understand it. Has your GM implied that this might be an issue?
well it was just something I was wondering because when I do use the ability I want to use effectively and within the rules.
It just doesn't seem like the right way to use Feather fall because if you can wait until you are close to the ground, then why does the ability increase the distance as you level?
not being able to use it flat footed is why it levels up, if you expect danger cast it then if you do spring a pit trap or otherwise fall it kicks in and saves you...also it slows you so if you fall during a fight you can switch to ranged attacks and not worrying about getting hurt badly in the fall
In this case my party always follows rules of physics. A falling object falls at a rate of 32 feet per second right? so that'll help figure out how long its gonna take to fall. The way i see it, you can cast an immediate action as an immediate action. Since its even a spell like ability I'm sure you character would know when its needed and cast accordingly.
In both scenarios, you would still take fall damage depending on the time that you casted feather fall.
Scenario 1: Yes, ready an action to cast it near the ground. Since feather fall slows down your speed this could negate it.
Scenario 2: Same deal, you can immediately activate it but you'd still be taking fall damage if the distance your fell exceeded your caster level.
In another thread about feather fall, a 3.5 Eberron item was brought up. It functioned as feather fall, but only lasted one round. For falls longer than 60 ft, that item required a DC 10 Wisdom check to time the activation properly to avoid all damage.
If you wish, you could use that same application for the regular feather fall spell in situations where activating immediately wouldn't cover the entire fall distance. I would recommend reducing the DC for higher caster levels, as the timing-issues would be less urgent when you have a longer buffer zone.
(Note: Eberron's world was such that falls of a mile or longer were very possible, giving its extensive use of very tall skyscrapers. In such situations, a Wisdom check for proper timing makes perfect sense, while you would probably not require a Wisdom check for falls of a few hundred feet)
In another thread about feather fall, a 3.5 Eberron item was brought up. It functioned as feather fall, but only lasted one round. For falls longer than 60 ft, that item required a DC 10 Wisdom check to time the activation properly to avoid all damage.
If you wish, you could use that same application for the regular feather fall spell in situations where activating immediately wouldn't cover the entire fall distance. I would recommend reducing the DC for higher caster levels, as the timing-issues would be less urgent when you have a longer buffer zone.
(Note: Eberron's world was such that falls of a mile or longer were very possible, giving its extensive use of very tall skyscrapers. In such situations, a Wisdom check for proper timing makes perfect sense, while you would probably not require a Wisdom check for falls of a few hundred feet)
That is kind of a side note, and that would be my Gm's call not mine... Basically this is purely a rules question. also, it might be good to know if there are any falling rules for the time it takes to fall a certain distance. Including a will save seems counter productive, because it doesn't really fix the original question...
It seems reasonable to be able to use feather fall at any point of the fall if you are have prepared to cast it specifically for that fall.
But, What if in scenario 1, I'm pushed instead of jumping? 400ft. is a long way to fall, so how much time would I account for the "suprise" part? I'm sure there are rules for how long it takes to fall distances... Does anyone know what book(s) I would find that in?
Using physics is a good rule, but rounds are ten seconds... that would mean that you would fall 320ft. In one round. But how does that work with initiative. technically the way initiative is supposed to wrk is that everyone is actually moving during the same ten second span, but that's not how it actually pans out, as each person does their action and then passes. So how would that work? If she's second or third in initiative how much time passes?
In other threads it has said that technically under the rules of immediate actions, Feather Fall cannot use it's implied function, because if you are caught flat-footed (e.g a pit trap) you cannot take immediate actions, hence you cannot use feather fall in this case. Most Gms, however, rule that you can, as it is the implied usage of the spell.
I thought I would get that out the way just in case it comes up.Please help!
You forgot to roll the concentration check required: it is pretty hard too.
Using physics is a good rule, but rounds are ten seconds... that would mean that you would fall 320ft. In one round. But how does that work with initiative. technically the way initiative is supposed to wrk is that everyone is actually moving during the same ten second span, but that's not how it actually pans out, as each person does their action and then passes. So how would that work? If she's second or third in initiative how much time passes?
Rounds are 6 seconds.
And objects do not fall at a steady 32 feet per second. They accelerate at 32 feet per second. There is a big difference.
Second 1 - fall 32 feet
Second 2 - fall another 32 feet, accelerate another 32 feet (96 feet fallen total), now falling at 64ft/second
Second 3 - fall another 64 feet, add 32 feet acceleration (160feet fallen total), falling at 96feet/second
Second 4 - fall another 96 feet, add another 32 ft/second acceleration (256feet fallen total), falling at 128ft/second
Second 5 - fall another 128feet, add another 32ft/second acceleration (384ft fallen total), falling at 160ft/second
Second 6 - fall another 160ft, add another 32ft/second acceleration (544ft fallen total), falling at 196ft/second.
So in a single rounds, you have fallen 544feet total, and have reached a falling speed of 196feet/second, or about 1176feet per round. Assuming my math is correct. At some point, you reach terminal velocity and stop accelerating, and start falling at a steady speed.
I'm sure there are rules for how long it takes to fall distances... Does anyone know what book(s) I would find that in?
I don't know if it was in an actual book, or just an online article, but Wizards of the Coast said you fall 500 feet the first round, and 1000 feet in every round after.
Rounds are 6 seconds.
My B
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well it was just something I was wondering because when I do use the ability I want to use effectively and within the rules.
It just doesn't seem like the right way to use Feather fall because if you can wait until you are close to the ground, then why does the ability increase the distance as you level?
You've sort of answered it here. Feather fall takes effect immediately immediately, despite how hard you try and read the rules to make it falter for a round's worth of falling.
So in a single rounds, you have fallen 544feet total, and have reached a falling speed of 196feet/second, or about 1176feet per round. Assuming my math is correct. At some point, you reach terminal velocity and stop accelerating, and start falling at a steady speed.
Terminal velocity is 60/mph varying slightly by wind resistance.
You forgot to roll the concentration check required: it is pretty hard too.
Why in gods name would I need to roll a concentration check for a spell-like ability that's an immediate action?
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Yar!
Why in gods name would I need to roll a concentration check for a spell-like ability that's an immediate action?
As has been pointed out in the other thread, it is RAW that you have to make a concentration check to cast a spell while falling.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level.
One of my posts in that thread has been getting plenty of FAQ hits regarding these exact issues (the concentration check and the "pit trap" scenario). Hopefully with enough FAQ hits there, we'll actually get an official answer to those questions.
Until then, it is, as always, up to the GM to interpret the RAW, and the RAW vs RAI. In this case, the RAI seems to conflict with the RAW, which is: if you're Flat Footed, you cannot take Immediate Actions (this includes Feather Fall), and if you cast Feather Fall when you start to fall (the most common scenario for casting it, as far as I know), then you must make a DC 21 Concentration check or the spell is wasted.
EDIT: also, Spell-Like Abilities do require Concentration Checks to use to avoid provoking and to avoid being disrupted in the same way normal spells do. LINK to that rule on the PRD
... Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity, just as when casting a spell. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. ...
Bolding is my own.
Also also, here is a link to the table that shows examples of what can disrupt a spell (and subsequently, Spell-Like Abilities) and their respective Concentration check DCs.
~P
Using physics is a good rule, but rounds are ten seconds... that would mean that you would fall 320ft. In one round. But how does that work with initiative. technically the way initiative is supposed to wrk is that everyone is actually moving during the same ten second span, but that's not how it actually pans out, as each person does their action and then passes. So how would that work? If she's second or third in initiative how much time passes?Rounds are 6 seconds.
And objects do not fall at a steady 32 feet per second. They accelerate at 32 feet per second. There is a big difference.
Second 1 - fall 32 feet
Second 2 - fall another 32 feet, accelerate another 32 feet (96 feet fallen total), now falling at 64ft/second
Second 3 - fall another 64 feet, add 32 feet acceleration (160feet fallen total), falling at 96feet/second
Second 4 - fall another 96 feet, add another 32 ft/second acceleration (256feet fallen total), falling at 128ft/second
Second 5 - fall another 128feet, add another 32ft/second acceleration (384ft fallen total), falling at 160ft/second
Second 6 - fall another 160ft, add another 32ft/second acceleration (544ft fallen total), falling at 196ft/second.So in a single rounds, you have fallen 544feet total, and have reached a falling speed of 196feet/second, or about 1176feet per round. Assuming my math is correct. At some point, you reach terminal velocity and stop accelerating, and start falling at a steady speed.
I'm sure there are rules for how long it takes to fall distances... Does anyone know what book(s) I would find that in?I don't know if it was in an actual book, or just an online article, but Wizards of the Coast said you fall 500 feet the first round, and 1000 feet in every round after.
Keep in mind that terminal velocity would dictate that you can only fall 177ft a second (rounding down), if you are falling "belly wide". So 1062ft a round. Hrm. Yeah, a meaningless point since you'd hit ground long before reaching that speed.
Yar!
You do not need to make a concentration check to cast feather fall while falling. It's specifically called out in the falling rules quoted above.
Actually, the two sentences quoted above don't actually imply there are no Concentration checks for casting Feather Fall. The first sentence states that unless the fall is greater than 500', no spell-casting is possible at all unless the spell in an Immediate Action (here Feather Fall is called out as an example of an Immediate Action spell). The next sentence then references all spells that can be cast during a fall (both for Immediate Action spells, and for normal spells during falls greater than 500'). That sentence declares that "Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level." This, as written, INCLUDES Feather Fall as requiring a Concentration Check.
Therein lies the issue, especially as James Jacobs has states HERE that Feather Fall should not require a Concentration Check (RAI)... but as written (RAW) you must.
EDIT: of course, if you disagree with my breakdown of the RAW, may I suggest following the link posted above to my post in the other thread (also hyperlinked HERE) and flag that post there for FAQ so as to get the issue clarified.
~P
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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*shrug*
The way it works at most tables and the way the designers intend for it to work; is if you have it memorized, you can cast it when you are falling and don't worry about the mechanics. While it's technically right, I've never seen a GM tell a player they can't do an Immediate action outside combat or make them take falling damage because they can't use Feather Fall since they aren't in combat.
Aside from the simple fact that... everyone plays it that way, and the designers planned it that way...
I don't make my players roll initiative before doing standard actions outside of combat either, nor do they have to wait until their initiative to move. The rules of combat are for... combat.
Still trying to work past the "How dow does Father fall work in this case"
title.I think Father can find some work in the fall, even when the DOW drops, as long as he is willing to work minimum wage.
NO NO NO!
Father Fall works when you wait for daylight savings time to kick in, and he loses an hour of sleep. Then, you tie a fishing line across the stairs on the third step down from the top. He's too tired to notice it as he stumbles down to get some coffee, and then voila! Father Fall!
Yar!
Don't get me wrong, I play that (RAI) way as well. Just pointing out that - as currently written - it doesn't actually work that way.
~P
Situation 1:
Let's say I jump off a 400ft. cliff. I'm not sure how fast I would fall according to the falling rules, but I would assume it's at least a round or two. Since she can fall 60 ft. safely, she would obviously take quite a bit of damage if sh activated it immediately, as she would still fall 340 ft. but since it is such a long fall, could I ready an action to activate the ability when I am 60ft. or closer to the ground?
I'm fairly certain this isn't the intended usage. I would always assume that you are using it just prior to or just after falling.
There are no easy rulings regarding this spell. You have to keep in mind how it's intended to work and keep away from any cheesiness.
If your falling more then 60ft. You will likely take damage. Although as DM I would consider it deliberate and allow you an acrobatics check.
A good way to look at it is that feather fall keeps you at the same velocity you were at prior to casting it.
A better question is: Will feather fall prevent damage if you become conscious in the middle of a free fall?
Thank you for Your help, I appear to have opened a pandora's box of ridiculous legalities in this ruling.... Such a simple spell shouldn't have to be so complicated. I don't really appreciate the ribbing for my "father fall" typo... I was really tired when I started this thread and I did my best. While a appreciate jokes and good fun, you're kind of being a dick by clogging up the thread.
I'm just going to have to talk to my GM about it.
1) Generally people do what you suggest, and activate the ability when nearer the ground. Only a jerk GM will put massive pressure on you about it. If your character has the ability, presumably they know how to use it effectively.
2) Activate it after the 20ft. Once active the spell slows you down, causing no damage - the momentum isn't "saved up" for later - so it negates that 20ft, and then prevents the remaining 60ft from hurting you.
Both of these are the standard way to play it, as I understand it. Has your GM implied that this might be an issue?
*shrug*
The way it works at most tables and the way the designers intend for it to work; is if you have it memorized, you can cast it when you are falling and don't worry about the mechanics. While it's technically right, I've never seen a GM tell a player they can't do an Immediate action outside combat or make them take falling damage because they can't use Feather Fall since they aren't in combat.
Aside from the simple fact that... everyone plays it that way, and the designers planned it that way...
I don't make my players roll initiative before doing standard actions outside of combat either, nor do they have to wait until their initiative to move. The rules of combat are for... combat.
These two seem to make the most sense, as they follow the spirit of the spell, and the Gm I have is new to Pathfinder, so I don't want to completely overwhelm him with all these rules. However, since these rule in my favor it seems unfair not to provide him with all the necessary information to make a ruling.
We can take a look at a few different situations, but naturally if I am aware of my fall I could just ready an action and it would be no sweat.
We would have to decide if I can activate the spell immediately if I fall without knowing so ahead of time, or if the fall is far longer than 60 ft. whether I could still wait until it is safer to cast it (as in situation 1), even with my surprise. I think it would be better to rule these ahead of time instead of stopping the game so we can figure it out.
I will mention the concentration check, but that seems needlessly complicated, especially considering the fact that I'm not a caster, so we would also have to figure out which “casting stat” I would add to the check.
Yar!
Unless the specific creature entry says otherwise, Spell-Like Abilities assume to use Charisma.
If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature's Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature's Charisma modifier.
~P
Using physics is a good rule, but rounds are ten seconds... that would mean that you would fall 320ft. In one round. But how does that work with initiative. technically the way initiative is supposed to wrk is that everyone is actually moving during the same ten second span, but that's not how it actually pans out, as each person does their action and then passes. So how would that work? If she's second or third in initiative how much time passes?Rounds are 6 seconds.
And objects do not fall at a steady 32 feet per second. They accelerate at 32 feet per second. There is a big difference.
Second 1 - fall 32 feet
Second 2 - fall another 32 feet, accelerate another 32 feet (96 feet fallen total), now falling at 64ft/second
Second 3 - fall another 64 feet, add 32 feet acceleration (160feet fallen total), falling at 96feet/second
Second 4 - fall another 96 feet, add another 32 ft/second acceleration (256feet fallen total), falling at 128ft/second
Second 5 - fall another 128feet, add another 32ft/second acceleration (384ft fallen total), falling at 160ft/second
Second 6 - fall another 160ft, add another 32ft/second acceleration (544ft fallen total), falling at 196ft/second.So in a single rounds, you have fallen 544feet total, and have reached a falling speed of 196feet/second, or about 1176feet per round. Assuming my math is correct. At some point, you reach terminal velocity and stop accelerating, and start falling at a steady speed.
I'm sure there are rules for how long it takes to fall distances... Does anyone know what book(s) I would find that in?I don't know if it was in an actual book, or just an online article, but Wizards of the Coast said you fall 500 feet the first round, and 1000 feet in every round after.
The math's not quite right. You missed that you're not travelling 32 feet per second until the end of the first second. The average speed (and distance travelled) for a given second is (beginning speed+ending speed)/2.
Second 1:accelerate to 32ft/sec, average speed=(0+32)/2=16ft/sec, total 16 ft.
Second 2:accel. to 64ft/sec, ave. speed=(32+64)/2=48ft/sec, total 64 ft.
Second 3:accel. to 96ft/sec, ave. speed=(64+96)/2=80ft/sec, total 174 ft.
Second 4:accel. to 128ft/sec, ave. speed=112ft/sec, total 286 ft.
Second 5:accel. to 160ft/sec, ave. speed=144ft/sec, total 430 ft.
Second 6:accel. to 196ft/sec, ave. speed=176ft/sec, total 606 ft.
But that would be acceleration in a vacuum. In an earth-equivalent atmosphere, the acceleration would gradually decrease as total speed increased, until at terminal velocity (around 176 ft/sec) there was no further acceleration at all. Wikipedia tells me that it takes about 15 seconds to effectively reach terminal velocity.
176 ft/sec*6=1056 ft/round at terminal velocity, so 1000ft/round is a pretty good figure after falling for a round or two. Probably it would be more like 400 feet the first round, 750 feet on the second, and 1000 thereafter, but the WotC guidelines are probably close enough for a seldom-encountered situation.
As far as super long falls and making sure you don't use your featherfall too early, if it came up in a game on the fly I'd probably have called it something like a DC 10 wisdom check to time it right.
As for requiring a concentration check to use the spell when falling, I'd say that requiring one is not much fun and somewhat contradictory to the point of the spell, and say it's not necessary, RAW notwithstanding.