Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Hey guys I can't find any rules for what happens when characters are hit by the same affect multiple times simultaneously i.e. Five Wizards fireball the party at the same time on the same initiative.
Do the PCs roll 5 separate saves?
Do they roll 1 save?
Do they roll 1 save with a penalty for the additional effects (sort of like how multiple poison doses work)?
Any help would be appreciated
Reebo
RAW: i dont get how they being hit by 5 simultaneous fireballs, but...
RAW: they make a save for each effect.
houserule, some have done 1 save at a higher DC.
poisons/afflictions are a particular kinda save schedule.
also depends on instant or duration
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ok let's say they are attacked by 5 creatures that have a sonic attack that causes stun on a failed save.
Would you think it balanced if they had to make the same single save vs one creature over 5 creatures?
Wouldn't the effect be enhanced?
Also if it's a continuous sound why would they make 5 saving throws?
RAW, each fireball hits on the individual mage's initiative (if you're running them on the same init for simplicity, each is still resolved on a separate action, the standard action of the mage casting).
And they would, consequently, roll five saves.
If you don't allow separate saving throws for each, you'll have some very hairy outcomes. Most notably, you're now dealing five times the damage off a single saving throw.
If I wanted to save time at the table, I'd have them roll against a single save, with +1 to the DC for each secondary caster, and +1d6 per caster.
That is, assuming they're all level 5 with 13 Intelligence (simple math, Save DC = 10+3+1 = 14, 5d6).
So, with five casters, the DC goes up to 19 and damage goes to 9d6.
A lot more useful than one save of 14 to stop 25d6.
But, five DC 14 saves, each to prevent 5d6, is the RAW. Also relevant in the event of SR and Fire Resistance, come to think of it.
IejirIsk wrote: RAW: i dont get how they being hit by 5 simultaneous fireballs, but...
Delayed blast fireballs...
OP: As instantaneous effect, they stack, and the saves are resolved individually. If it makes the game faster, you might make it a single save, but that would also make the game more deadly (either you save or not).
Multiple stun attacks: 5 creatures does not attack simultaneously. One attack, and on a hit, the target must make a save. Next attack, and on a hit, the target must make a save. Repeat.
For faster, more fun, gameplay, we tend to roll these attacks (and therefore) saving throws at the same time.
Balance-wise it would make the encounter quite a lot easier only to have a single saving throw. It might balance out decently to raise the DC for each additional attack (sort of like poisons), but my guess is that it would benefit low saves PCs and hurt very high save PCs.
Reebo Kesh wrote: Ok let's say they are attacked by 5 creatures that have a sonic attack that causes stun on a failed save.
Would you think it balanced if they had to make the same single save vs one creature over 5 creatures?
Wouldn't the effect be enhanced?
Also if it's a continuous sound why would they make 5 saving throws?
I'm guessing you're looking at the Destrachan.
And no, they should be entitled to each, distinct, save. I would probably hand-wave making a character that failed against the stun version from rolling against subsequent stuns. But, RAW, each gets a save even if they're already stunned (IIRC, you track all the durations separately, since each could be cured separately).
It's not a continuous sound. It's five separate, but overlapping, sounds.
From what I'm seeing, this thread probably belongs in the "House Rules" section. That seems to fit what you're looking for, since it sounds like you actually already understand the RAW.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Thanks guys I will stick with multiple saves.
Much appreciated.
Multiple saves. If for some reason you need an order such as what if one of those spells was hold person. The defender decides which to roll for first,second,third,ect. Though with out spellcraft all he would know is how many of which save.
Captain Moonscar wrote: Multiple saves. If for some reason you need an order such as what if one of those spells was hold person. The defender decides which to roll for first,second,third,ect. Though with out spellcraft all he would know is how many of which save. No you do them in order of initiative if it would matter, and that initiative is determined by situation/DM call when they act in concert.
I'm not meaning to fully derail this thread, but this is actually along the lines of something that I was wondering about poisons. The PRD specifically mentions stacking poison effects, and how multiple doses of the same poison raise the save DC by +2 per extra dose, and they extend the duration of the poison effect by half per extra dose.
PRD wrote: Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. In the previous paragraph though, it mentions that Injury poisons don't have an onset time, which would mean that the save is rolled as soon as the target is hit by the poisoned attack. I take it that would mean that the initial save DC for Injury poisons can't be modified by additional doses. But then it goes on to say:
PRD wrote: For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. I understand that the subsequent saves for the spider poison would be increased to a DC of 18 if you failed all 3 initial saves, but the initial save from being bitten would still just be 14, right? Or am I mistaken about how injury poisons work, and they don't require an immediate save but rather a save at their first frequency interval? Like, if I was using Drow Poison would it take 1 minute from the initial hit before the target had to make their first save?
the save would be 14+(2 per dose already IN system).
so:
DC 14
-if succeed nothing
-if fail, poisoned.
--another bite
--DC 14+(2*1 dose already) = 16
---if save, second poison no effect
---if fail, 2 doses of poison (+1/2 duration)
etc
So, in the above case, would that mean that regardless of the saves on the first 2 doses the 3rd dose would have an initial DC of 18, or would it only be modified by the number of failed saves? And I take it I was correct in assuming that Injury poisons immediately trigger a save once you've been hit with them, since they lack an onset, right?
you only take a stacking +2 DC for doses of the same poison in your system. if you have a dose in your system, then it expires and get bit again, the dc is still 14. so kinda failed saves...
injury effects once it as been gifted. same as any other poison.
other poisons are usually harder to use, cause they get 2 saves. the initial, and at onset. PC's dont neccesarily know if they have been poisoned/cursed/afflicted
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