Double Polymorph confusion

[Lemmylinks]

Hey guys. I got a power gamer that's been talking about a spell combo that just seems confusing to me.

My player is a transmutation wizard and is considering using Form of the Dragon to become a dragon, then cast Permanency. Afterward he uses the dragons Alter Self ability to change back into human.

My question comes from the fact that both these spells are polymorph spells. Core rule book says that the next polymorph spell overwrites the next, to paraphrase.

His goal is to be a medium sized creature with base stats of an adult dragon. He says that it works because the Alter self spell would overpower the previous one. Since alter self doesn't change base stats, would he keep the Dragon stats?

[Ravingdork]

You can only ever benefit from one polymorph effect at a time. You can find the rules for polymorph effects in the Magic chapter (or here).

There you can see it clearly says the following:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Therefore, the moment he casts alter self, he loses ALL of the benefits and effects of form of the dragon, whether or not it is made permanent.

Additionally, form of the dragon cannot be made permanent. Permanency only works on very specific spells. Form of the dragon is not one of them and thus is off limits unless the GM is willing to change the rules.

If I were you I'd be wary of this player of yours. Seems to me like he is trying to pull the wool over your eyes (or else is simply ignorant of the rules).

[Rynjin]

So where in the description of Form of the Dragon does it say it's a valid target for Permanency? I can't find it anywhere.

[Oterisk]

Yeah, the second polymorph would overwrite the first. If he wanted the stats, he has got to keep the form.

[Lemmylinks]

Rynjin wrote:

So where in the description of Form of the Dragon does it say it's a valid target for Permanency? I can't find it anywhere.

That's what I'm trying to find! I don't know where he's coming up with this. I think he's pulling from old 3.5 rules. He's been playing much longer than I.

I've been telling him for the past few days that I don't think it works but he constantly argues against me. He won't agree with me (the GM) so maybe the internet will make him believe.

[Rynjin]

Tell him to can it. Even if it were in the rules (which it isn't) you have the right as GM to throw out his cheese. That, or you can shove his cheese right up his ass by allowing it and then making your new BBEG use the same trick (perhaps with an Ancient dragon or summat instead).

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, this "trick" didn't even work in v3.5 (I've been playing for nearly 20 years).

Again, he's either mistaken (I've seen groups play with house rules for YEARS without ever realizing they were house rules), or he's trying to trick you.

[TwoMoons]

Form of the Dragon can not be made permanent with Permanency. Also, Form of the Dragon does not grant any spells or spell-like abilities. The various polymorph spells are all very specific in what they grant you. Everything is called out in the spell description, if it is not listed you don't get it. Therefore, no Alter Self ability.