Goblin Squad Member
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Taverns are the center of the "Kaverns and Kobolds" gaming world.
Its where adventurers meet up, spend their gains, relax, and start/end adventures. Oh, and they also get Drunk.
Now in an MMO, especially DDO and Neverwinter, I've seen this concept fall flat. Taverns are simply not fun to hang out in. In fact, they are quite boring.
First, you can't really get drunk in video games, so that reason for going to the taverns is done.
Second, there's nothing to DO in the taverns. People in bars beyond getting drunk also tend to want something to do.
I say we get some tavern games. If this was DnD I'd suggest Three Dragon Ante, butits not...so you might try finding some non-poker style gambling card games you can make analogues of for Pathfinder.
Then there's Liars Dice, commonly seen in Pirates of the Caribbean and some other games.
You might also add in darts, ringing the bull, or other olde taverns.
The key here is when you have "down time" in the game, either enforced, or when the player just doesn't want to craft, explore, kill (etc.) they can go to the tavern, pick up a game and play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way to make alternative buildings like taverns more used, is to give them a mechanical usage. For instance, in SWG the Cantinas were the only public place to receive full buffs from entertainers.
I don't think the answer is to make things to do, but a reason for everyone to use them. You end up with a lot of people passing through, and increase the 'regulars'
I would enjoy social games(and gambling), or even something like slot machines to burn some time and potentially make some coin.
The HAM buffs in SWG were are great economic benefit, and social benefit. I would like to see something similar in this game. You can go do a good chunk of low-moderate skill activities without them, but you need to visit a few common social areas frequently(1-2 hours depending on skill of 'buffer') to 'max out' your potential.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way to make alternative buildings like taverns more used, is to give them a mechanical usage. For instance, in SWG the Cantinas were the only public place to receive full buffs from entertainers.
I don't think the answer is to make things to do, but a reason for everyone to use them. You end up with a lot of people passing through, and increase the 'regulars'
I would enjoy social games(and gambling), or even something like slot machines to burn some time and potentially make some coin.
The HAM buffs in SWG were are great economic benefit, and social benefit. I would like to see something similar in this game. You can go do a good chunk of low-moderate skill activities without them, but you need to visit a few common social areas frequently(1-2 hours depending on skill of 'buffer') to 'max out' your potential.
My problem with SWG Cantinas were that they were "forced" downtime. Sure you didn't "HAVE" to go to the cantina (except for wounds), but if you (or your guild) wanted you to have max potential, you pretty much needed to.
It becomes a balancing act. How do you entice people to enter a bar without them feeling like they HAVE to go(and spend time) to the bar when they don't want to?
One thing that would pop out at me would be a convenience factor. Perhaps some things are just easier to do while in there. (Pick up groups would be one thing I would make very bar convenient).
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have to 'spend time', you just have to pop in and get your buffs. You knew you would be there for 4-5 minutes, good time to look at something in the distance to prevent eye strain, relieve your bladder, or grab a snack, for the next hour or two of gaming.
Forced 'down time' and 'travel time' are key elements of games, you don't want people to be constantly in the heavy action or they get bored quicker. The Arkam Batman games were great to me, they had little action in comparison to most 'action' games, the key is making the game nice to look at, same goes for Skyrim.
You just have to make sure every time you force someone to go somewhere, it is worth their while, either visually or mechanically.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You don't have to 'spend time', you just have to pop in and get your buffs. You knew you would be there for 4-5 minutes, good time to look at something in the distance to prevent eye strain, relieve your bladder, or grab a snack, for the next hour or two of gaming.
Forced 'down time' and 'travel time' are key elements of games, you don't want people to be constantly in the heavy action or they get bored quicker. The Arkam Batman games were great to me, they had little action in comparison to most 'action' games, the key is making the game nice to look at, same goes for Skyrim.
You just have to make sure every time you force someone to go somewhere, it is worth their while, either visually or mechanically.
Then in a way you've missed the entire point of the thread. A tavern that people go AFK in fails just as bad as a tavern that nobody uses at all. The point is to have the tavern become a social hub.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is no long-distance chat feature (as I hope there isn't) like sending /tells or just a general chat, the social aspect will develop organically. Where do you go to meet people, or to sit and talk with your buddies, strategically or otherwise? A tavern, obviously - it's the easy choice, people know where it is, it's neutral ground, nobody has to be the 'host' - it works.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of a game of darts, for sure, with a way to set up matches and bet, and a way for spectators to bet on you.
Some sort of musical instrument like a piano would be good as well, and provide a way to 'feed' it piano roll music (and a way to make and practice your 'piano roll').
I always felt that public bulletin boards would make sense in a tavern or inn. Plus logging out in a tavern or inn would be fitting and possibly beneficial to a character.
Meeting rooms for guilds outside their settlement, perhaps with a reservation system or instancing mechanic, would be good for private team meetings.
Outside might be a horseshoe pit, or maybe boca bowling.
A craps table would fit, perhaps with variant dice.
Possibly a rudimentary stock market where player characters with money could help fund new settlements and expeditions in exchange for stock, or a share of the proceeds.
Taverns could also be a hub for contracts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A stage for story tellers, actors, singers, or buffs to be received from travelings minstrels and/or bards, a dart board, tables for knucklebones, in-game backgammon boards, chess boards (zombies vs. plants, or , wizards vs. goblins), checker boards, a boxing ring where a boxing match or fistfights could be held (or even a gnome or halfling toss!), a blank wall where players could toss coins against.
A tavern owner could pay to have a wishing well put in, or maybe an area where characters could spar and not die (magical or otherwise).
Maybe people could get a tiny buff (1% boost) to contracts negotiated inside a tavern to encourage negotiations. Or a temporary buff to groups formed while inside a tavern (2% to HP as a morale boost for 30 minutes, might be alcohol induced).
Once players are able to sing (drunkenly or not) group singing contests could be held between different groups (either an in-game tool for music or scripted songs from talented players with sing along words posted to party chat....).
One of the Kickstarter rewards at $5,000 was to be the owner of an indestructible tavern with an always present bar patron who would always take a seat at the bar, as long as you paid for your tavern upkeep the bar could not be destroyed by seige equipment. Perfect place for gatherings.
(Maybe these taverns would be great places for huge barfights since they can't be destroyed.)
I definitely hope Goblinworks puts some effort into making taverns into social hubs. Games, bulletin boards and instruments are all super ideas. Another possibility is that killing someone in a tavern might create a harsher Reputation debuff, since taverns are often seen as "neutral" locations.
That may not be a good idea, of course. My point is that taverns need plenty of options. Making each one distinct is a big step towards making them attractive places to hang out.
Maybe there could be a place to hang trophies, if the tavern owner allows it. He could even hold contests for the guy to bring the most exotic/cool-looking one. Of course, that would require people to be able to get trophies (perhaps requiring them to work with a hunter who can cut up the monster properly after it's dead). But I think putting, say, an ankheg's head over the fireplace would be a pretty awesome way to distinguish your tavern from the rival one the next town over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the best places to go for information, job searching etc. is a bar. People go there after to work to relax, to drown thier sorrows which half the time includes talking about them. Why not help bring that concept to the taverns by putting a bulletin board inside. It can list jobs, quests, contracts, wanted posters etc. Putting in some simple games <gambling etc.>. Have rumors and lore come out there also.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the best places to go for information, job searching etc. is a bar. People go there after to work to relax, to drown thier sorrows which half the time includes talking about them. Why not help bring that concept to the taverns by putting a bulletin board inside. It can list jobs, quests, contracts, wanted posters etc. Putting in some simple games <gambling etc.>. Have rumors and lore come out there also.
How about bakeries? Just askin'...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im sure thats where the information hub is. From what I saw, Lisa and on down at Goblinworks are all gamers. Old School PnP style gamers. They all know how the Tavern works and have had plenty of characters in them at the start of many games LOL.
The tavern will be special in this game... It may not start out completed but you bet it will be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the best places to go for information, job searching etc. is a bar. People go there after to work to relax, to drown thier sorrows which half the time includes talking about them. Why not help bring that concept to the taverns by putting a bulletin board inside. It can list jobs, quests, contracts, wanted posters etc. Putting in some simple games <gambling etc.>. Have rumors and lore come out there also.How about bakeries? Just askin'...
OOOO I know a good one! How about Tony's!!! I hear good stuff from there, and us over at The Order of the Bloody Hand love their bread!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tony's???
Where is this?
Blaeringr and I may have started off on the wrong foot, but I've grown to appreciate his dedication, and gotten over my own thin-skinned reaction to his taunting. I'm sure he won't mind me plugging Tony's.
Chartered Company: Tony's Totally Legitimate Breadmaking Business
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is no long-distance chat feature (as I hope there isn't) like sending /tells or just a general chat, the social aspect will develop organically. Where do you go to meet people, or to sit and talk with your buddies, strategically or otherwise? A tavern, obviously - it's the easy choice, people know where it is, it's neutral ground, nobody has to be the 'host' - it works.
Long distance chat is inevitable. If GW doesn't provide a CC + Settlement + Nation chat channel, these groups will inevitably create them anyway, via XFire, skype, vent/teamspeak/mumble etc...
I do kind of hate that because I do actually like up close chat where avitars are actually within proximity. One thing odd I do remember in my gaming, the game ragnarok online, is the one game I specifically remember people would regularly gather up avitars to sit around and chat, regular circles of people sitting around and conversing. Unfortunately no matter how much I analyze the game, I cannot figure out what caused this phenominon in the game. It was commonplace among multiple servers, 3rd party private servers etc... The game itself had nothing I can see as especially unique to create it, guild chat, private messages etc... were all fully implemented, and people formed social circles, regular meeting places etc... even to chat 1 on 1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see taverns that have rentable, private rooms. These could be instanced and with their own chat channel, allowing for secret meetings.
The back room parlors could become places were deception and intrigue are plotted and illicit deals can be hatched or finalized.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
I'm surprised to see you of all people asking for an instanced secret room - one where a stealthing character couldn't sneak up and overhear the conversation. :)
I agree with Scarlette (and was all set to post it until I saw she had done so already) - taverns need to be a hub for information. If the information garnered at taverns is truly useful, then information will bring in patrons. There are bound to be characters who spend a good deal of their game time (since we don't have to actively grind skills to gain skills) gathering and sharing information. I think networking in PFO is going to be a very important expenditure of one's time. If we can try to keep more of that in-character and in-game (in-game meaning talking to one another rather than tells and chat channels), then sharing information can run the gamut from friendly banter to intelligence pedaling.
As for other forms of information, I think various message boards would be ideal - want adds for hiring/looking for work, for items/goods, in-game messages that would be great additions for player-run story-lines(so-and-so, when you read this, meet me...), the latest bounties, rumors and gossip, etc.
Though I'm not certain it needs to be displayed on a board in a tavern, I like the option someone suggested about stocks - I wonder if with the use of one or more of the in-game contracts, could you run a company and provide profit shares to your financial backers in a secure fashion?
I know stamina has been suggested in combat. Could gaining back your full stamina (back to max) require more thorough rest, such as in a camp, settlement, or tavern (many games only give some kind of bonus - usually resting xp - if you log out in a tavern)? Just a thought.
If food has a real purpose in the game, I could see tavern owners being/hiring cooks to sell their food to patrons - actual menu boards, waiting on tables, paying for your meal and giving a tip. I know role-players who would love to play the part of tavern staff and who, by doing so over years of game play, become pillars of the RP community in a game. They're another draw for a tavern - they know how to make players feel welcome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see taverns that have rentable, private rooms. These could be instanced and with their own chat channel, allowing for secret meetings.
The back room parlors could become places were deception and intrigue are plotted and illicit deals can be hatched or finalized.
I like this idea too, will add a lot to immersion and give people another reason to meet in taverns. Maybe spies could use listen skill to try to figure out what people are talking inside the private rooms, as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like this idea too, will add a lot to immersion and give people another reason to meet in taverns. Maybe spies could use listen skill to try to figure out what people are talking inside the private rooms, as well.I would like to see taverns that have rentable, private rooms. These could be instanced and with their own chat channel, allowing for secret meetings.
The back room parlors could become places were deception and intrigue are plotted and illicit deals can be hatched or finalized.
That exclusively would only work in the event that skype and alternate programs don't exist. People will NOT use a private communication method for anything private, if there is even a 1% chance of a non-invited party can overhear it. They will first use whatever in game is infalable, if that fails they will move the conversation out of game. If you add any drawback or any failure chance of any measure of chat that is designed to be "private", it will not be used for anything that the parties have anything at stake if it becomes public.
That exclusively would only work in the event that skype and alternate programs don't exist. People will NOT use a private communication method for anything private, if there is even a 1% chance of a non-invited party can overhear it. They will first use whatever in game is infalable, if that fails they will move the conversation out of game. If you add any drawback or any failure chance of any measure of chat that is designed to be "private", it will not be used for anything that the parties have anything at stake if it becomes public.I like this idea too, will add a lot to immersion and give people another reason to meet in taverns. Maybe spies could use listen skill to try to figure out what people are talking inside the private rooms, as well.I would like to see taverns that have rentable, private rooms. These could be instanced and with their own chat channel, allowing for secret meetings.
The back room parlors could become places were deception and intrigue are plotted and illicit deals can be hatched or finalized.
Maybe running a program like Warden isn't such a bad idea. GW would never go so far as to ban 3ed party programs. But I would definitely support such an action to keep a limited communication within the game world. Since they can't stop people from using chat programs, it would be nice to have a built in program we could use similar to what other games have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't worry. If PFO has a format anything like EVE, someone you think you trust will weasel their way into your group and spill your secrets to the world (or your enemies). It will happen, so start vetting your members now.
Maybe a more "in-game" scenario for the secret meeting room would be a "private dining area without a solid door...more like the family room at Shoney's. A real sneaker could skulk in and hide in the corner and get some juicy info (or you could share bogus info to do some counter-intel). You could still use vent or the like, but having a sealed off private room seems a bit OOC to me.
Sometimes, realism gets in the way. Making these so-called "private" rooms possible to listen in on could be one such case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe running a program like Warden isn't such a bad idea. GW would never go so far as to ban 3ed party programs. But I would definitely support such an action to keep a limited communication within the game world. Since they can't stop people from using chat programs, it would be nice to have a built in program we could use similar to what other games have.
I'm missing some connections here, could use a bit of clarification.
You start by saying using a creepy program that may overly monitor what your computer is doing, might not be a bad idea. Then follow it up saying GW would never go so far as to disallow 3rd party programs. Are you saying it might not be a bad idea, but they wouldn't do it? or saying they should use a wardenesque program but not for that purpose, or am I missing something.
But yeah all that aside, 3rd party communication is inevitable, Lets say we do go so draconian that it would make EA blush. we create a program that is absolutely foolproof. Lets say PFO actually installs onto a secrete proprietary operating system that cannot be visualized, with a filesystem that the CIA couldn't crack.
People would still be able to connect to vent/teamspeak/mumble via smartphones etc... Private secure communication, is a fact of life right now, people demand it, expect it, and if it isn't given to them natively in a game, they have countless alternative means to obtain it, and thus it should be implemented into the game, as equally private and secure as any of the alternative methods.
and yup of course people will still have security breaches that come from trusting the wrong person etc... But that still doesn't change that they will want secure communication. If only 3 people know the plans for settlement Y to attack settlement X, and settlement X catches wind on it early. The leader of settlement Y would like to definitively know one of the 2 people he told is the leak, and not have the variable of "or a spy overheard the plans". Yes it would create a more dynamic game if it were feasible to ensure they don't have secure comms, but as previously mentioned, it isn't.
A cooler solution, would be for GW to create cool mechanics that add a better feel for in person gatherings. Thinking back to Ragnarok Online, It actually occoured to me something that may have been a factor in the face to face communication. People really liked it's emotes, they were simple, but they captured the feel of the game rather well, and that could be a part of it.
I'm actually currious of the difficulty etc... of implimenting similar to what EQ2 has been working on. (IE they actually have been working on facial tracking and voice filters to have your avitar speak in a desired voice, and it's facial expressions to match yours). This may be unfeasible or inaccessible technology for GW, but it would create a psychological encouragement towards using localized communication.
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You start by saying using a creepy program that may overly monitor what your computer is doing, might not be a bad idea. Then follow it up saying GW would never go so far as to disallow 3rd party programs. Are you saying it might not be a bad idea, but they wouldn't do it?
The part I bolded is correct. In a game set in a time where technology, cell phones etc... Don't exist, characters shouldn't be able to talk to other characters on the other side of the map. Magic may allow some communication, but it would be more in line with the telegraph system as opposed to say a cell phone. Access being harder to come by as few possess the skill.
So mainly I was saying if a program could limit communication to how it "should" be in the game world, I would approve its use. But GW would never try and limit players communication, even if it were possible, which it isn't. As you point out, there are other means that bypass the computer totally.
I believe it would be interesting to see a game where communication is limited to how it would be in the game world, where /shout is the furthest distance most players can communicate if they can't employ magic. It would definitely make for a different gaming experience. Maybe a bad one, who knows?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valandur
That is an interesting idea, but they would have to have a voice to text program as part of the chat system. If you want chat / voice realism, characters don't type their shouts, they voice them.
Then you would have to include the "inspect / interact" mechanic to identify a character, until they become part of your "known" list.
These two combined would create a very unique player interaction model. I just wonder how possible it would be?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You start by saying using a creepy program that may overly monitor what your computer is doing, might not be a bad idea. Then follow it up saying GW would never go so far as to disallow 3rd party programs. Are you saying it might not be a bad idea, but they wouldn't do it?The part I bolded is correct. In a game set in a time where technology, cell phones etc... Don't exist, characters shouldn't be able to talk to other characters on the other side of the map. Magic may allow some communication, but it would be more in line with the telegraph system as opposed to say a cell phone. Access being harder to come by as few possess the skill.
So mainly I was saying if a program could limit communication to how it "should" be in the game world, I would approve its use. But GW would never try and limit players communication, even if it were possible, which it isn't. As you point out, there are other means that bypass the computer totally.
I believe it would be interesting to see a game where communication is limited to how it would be in the game world, where /shout is the furthest distance most players can communicate if they can't employ magic. It would definitely make for a different gaming experience. Maybe a bad one, who knows?
Oh I wish... luckily most MMOs allow us to choose our chat channels, I am one of those who turn everything but spatial and guild off...I would turn guild off too if I normally did not have duties and responsibilities. But, I would love to see the emergent behaviours resulting from a system in which everyone did that (unless that behaviour is /ragequit).