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An interesting conversation from 2013.
I had liked the concept and inner workings of Planescape, and hoped something of that nature would have made it to 3.5. We have a couple of Regions in PF that has a mix of races, but not as accepting as the city in the center of the planes.
It always amuses me that players are surprised when Enlarge Person will not work on a Native Outsider. I, myself, have an Oread getting ready to be a Living Monolith, who can enlarge himself even though he is an Outsider. Three times a day.
As this thread continues, I have to look at and make a new reference card for myself to know what Knowledge Skills each Monster Type needs. I use to have it printed out, but lost it. Humanoid is Local while Outsider is Planes.
Oh, and on point, the Outsider (Native) isn't a Humanoid, nor should it be.
I'll happily treat tieflings, aasimar, and the geniekin as Humanoid (Planetouched) in games I run, but it's been a long time since I've GMed.
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First of all, I'm well aware that I can do whatever I want when I'm the GM for a home game. There are three reasons I'm bringing this issue up;
1. I can find no official answer.
Official answers aren't to the questions "should be", but are.
In the various books they and asasimars appear in they ARE specifically identified by type.... Outsider, Native.
That IS what the rules say they are.
It is also specified that they do not have racial HD so that items such as skills, weapon proficiencies et. al are determined solely by class levels. Since they do not have Outsider HD, they do not get Outsider weapon or skill proficiencies. If you want a Tiefling that can be affected by spells that target humanoids, the "Scion of Humanity" feat is what you need.
I think you failed a perception checks.
I'll happily treat tieflings, aasimar, and the geniekin as Humanoid (Planetouched) in games I run, but it's been a long time since I've GMed.
Honestly, the entire "native outsider" type should be tossed out. It tends to get used as a dumping bin for things that could easily be slotted into one of the other existing types but aren't because they are from another plane, which is complete nonsense since the Extraplanar subtype exists to mark creatures who exist on other planes as from other planes. In fact, are there any examples of creatures that don't slot easily into one of the existing categories, considering that the "Magical Beast" and "Aberration" types are ridiculously broad? Then we wouldn't have this nonsense about humanoids that aren't...humanoids.
If you want to get down to it, I'd toss the 'Outsider' type entirely, in favor of letting 'Demon', 'Devil', and whatever be fully-fledged Types.
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If you want to get down to it, I'd toss the 'Outsider' type entirely, in favor of letting 'Demon', 'Devil', and whatever be fully-fledged Types.
The Outsider type does allow you to easily determine what things can be affected by dismissal and enhanced effects vs alignment outsiders.
It's a lot easier to say Evil Outsiders than Demons, Qlippoth, Daemons, Divs, Devils, Kytons, Demodands, and whatever else that has (Outsider Evil)
Eh. We have alignment subtypes and the [Extraplanar] descriptor/type for that. For bane weapons and Favored Enemies, I've always felt 'Evil Outsiders' is way too broad.
Eh. We have alignment subtypes and the [Extraplanar] descriptor/type for that. For bane weapons and Favored Enemies, I've always felt 'Evil Outsiders' is way too broad.
Shrug. Opinions may vary. I find that there are way too many different and irreconcilable types of entities associated with the abstract forces of evil, and that that's one of the main issues that forces people to wander around with golf bags full of weapons.
Wait a minute, that's not a Qlippoth, that's a Xymrglfrmp! That means you need to use a weapon made of Corn Flakes! (starts rummaging in Handy Haversack.)
What's with the handy haversack? If a character is lucky enough to stumble upon a +1 corn flake falchion of persistent crunchiness why would they carry anything else? On a more serious note the necessity to have your character as a walking armory at higher levels does get a little ridiculous after a while.
I just think it's too obviously the 'right' choice for any campaign. For humanoids, we make you pick subtypes, not alignments.
If you want a weapon to hit any evil outsider with, you should be looking at holy, not bane.
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It possible to have weapons that are too specific. For example, Blood-hunting and Sprit-hunting. A weapon that not only effect only two specific classes, but only effect a specific type of two classes is too specific to ever be useful.
Forcing Bane to be Bane (div) instead of Bane(evil outsider) is one that is too specific.
But I agree, Holy is the much stronger choice.
A wayang-bane weapon is too specific. Orc-bane is not.
I don't think devil-bane is too specific. You shouldn't buy or craft one in Wrath of the Righteous, but you definitely should in Hell's Rebels.
I just think it's too obviously the 'right' choice for any campaign. For humanoids, we make you pick subtypes, not alignments.
Note that you're picking a subtype there too. "Evil outsider" in the context does not mean any old outsider with an evil alignment, it specifically means "outsider with the evil subtype".
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I'll happily treat tieflings, aasimar, and the geniekin as Humanoid (Planetouched) in games I run, but it's been a long time since I've GMed.Honestly, the entire "native outsider" type should be tossed out. It tends to get used as a dumping bin for things that could easily be slotted into one of the other existing types but aren't because they are from another plane, which is complete nonsense since the Extraplanar subtype exists to mark creatures who exist on other planes as from other planes. In fact, are there any examples of creatures that don't slot easily into one of the existing categories, considering that the "Magical Beast" and "Aberration" types are ridiculously broad? Then we wouldn't have this nonsense about humanoids that aren't...humanoids.
Im personally a big fan of it, and I really do not see what the problem is. Being an Outsider comes with benefits and drawbacks, and in my experience, the drawbacks tend to outweigh the benefits slightly. Charm and Hold Person do not really come up that often, but not being able to use Enlarge/Reduce Person does a lot.
Flavor-wise, I think its very cool, and again, I really do not see the problem, especially when there are options, well in some cases at least, to change that if its your preference.