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I have always wondered why "knock back" has never been in the rules; especially now that guns are involved in the game. I play PFS so there are no "home rules" allowed, but in general - I think there should be a Knock back rule. Crossbows and bows had incredible kinetic energy, and even with the relatively low muzzle velocity of the guns now in the game, knock back should be a factor. Granted, not every hit would generate enough force, but short range shots from a crossbow, bow or gun should have the chance to knock the target on their prone-ation. LOL Perhaps as a result of a Critical Hit? Or if someone rolls max damage? That way it would not dominate the game.
Talk amongst yourselves! Mingle Mingle.........
It would change the game a lot.
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Newton's Third - For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, if a weapon's projectile could physically move its target, it would necessarily physically move the attacker. In fact, because the target is taking force concentrated into a smaller surface area, anything that could knock the target physically back would be more likely to do it to the attacker.
Knock-back is a myth. If you really want to demonstrate this to yourself, grab a pumpkin -- say, a lowly 20-pounder -- and hit it with the broadest, bluntest arrow you like from the most powerful bow you can draw. The pumpkin won't go anywhere, and it's got one-tenth the inertia of a fantasy warrior.
("Knock-down" happens, but it's mostly a function of the shock of getting wounded, or sometimes of the actual wound (i.e., getting hit in the leg). "Spin-around" also happens, for similar reasons. So does "Stagger-back." But knock-back? No.)
On the other hand, knock-back not being scientifically accurate obviously doesn't keep it out of a fantasy game. But then the argument isn't one of science, but one of cinematics.
If you want knock-back, become Large and take Awesome Blow. Or do what I do and play Mutants & Masterminds!
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There are very, very few weapons that actually have enough recoil to "knock back" the shooter.
There are lots of weapons that "kick" the user hard enough that it can affect the shooter's equilibrium if the shooter is not prepared. A prepared shooter will feel the "kick" but will not be physically moved.
The actual MOMENTUM delivered by a bullet is what would "knock back" a target, and momentum is mass*velocity. Even a 50 caliber bullet has nearly negligible mass compared to a human being, so the velocity it would have to travel would be hypersonic, and at those speeds the kinetic energy exchange (mass*velocity^2) would likely be like detonating a small pipe bomb in the body so "knock back" would be difficult to determine since there would be not much left but pieces.
Knockback is unrealistic, yes, and would change the game...but I could understand a feat/grit ability/such that lets you knockback with ranged attacks.
Yeah, it's an unrealistic element from movies and such...but it's cool, useful, and not TOO unrealistic for a fantasy RPG
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By simple virtue of mass and velocity, anything large would add knockback effects to every melee hit that wasn't a predatory attack (as very few of those ever push the prey away from the predator).
Ogres with greatclubs, all the way up to titans with collosal warhammers. Dragon tailslaps and wingslams.
The vital strike tree would be revalued simply because melee characters would almost never get full attacks! Spellcasters would be more powerful due to their ability to do their job with just standard actions and, with a successful concentration check, pull off a full round cast even if hit. Ranged characters would likewise do better, both by not being hit in melee but by also being able to knockback enemies as well. To say nothing that most casters have easy access to ranged attack nullifiers.
Orcish hordes would be hampered by ranks of archers even more than they currently are.
tldr: melee gets hosed, ranged cheers, spellcasters polish their crowns and laugh at everyone else.
As others have stated more eloquently than me, because knock back doesn't happen in real life. I can't think of a good reason to add a fake Hollywood effect to Pathfinder.
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I can't think of a good reason to add a fake Hollywood effect to Pathfinder.
I too am appalled that players might want to do cool but unrealistic things in my game about elf wizards fighting dragons.
I can't think of a good reason to add a fake Hollywood effect to Pathfinder.I too am appalled that players might want to do cool but unrealistic things in my game about elf wizards fighting dragons.
Or pop-culture Ninjas, Monks that can punch through things as if their fists were magical and made from cold-iron, silver and, adamintine, and Summoners who have trans-planar pets. lol.
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I too am appalled that players might want to do cool but unrealistic things in my game about elf wizards fighting dragons.Or pop-culture Ninjas, Monks that can punch through things as if their fists were magical and made from cold-iron, silver and, adamintine, and Summoners who have trans-planar pets.
Y'all are aware that it was the OP who brought up real-world physics in his call for knock-back, right? That, in fact, this thread is entitled "Knockback - A Question of Physics"? That, furthermore, several people in their responses said that real-world physics wouldn't necessarily bar something from the game?
I only ask because AFAICT you didn't bother to read the thread before sniping in it. And who can blame you, really, when one-line sarcasm just makes you look so cool and sophisticated, like the Internet version of Kool menthols? (Oooh, so refreshing!)
Is your menthol cigarette tasting flat?
Come up to pure menthol KOOL and enjoy the taste of extra coolness.
Y'all are aware that it was the OP who brought up real-world physics in his call for knock-back, right? That, in fact, this thread is entitled "Knockback - A Question of Physics"? That, furthermore, several people in their responses said that real-world physics wouldn't necessarily bar something from the game?Or pop-culture Ninjas, Monks that can punch through things as if their fists were magical and made from cold-iron, silver and, adamintine, and Summoners who have trans-planar pets.I can't think of a good reason to add a fake Hollywood effect to Pathfinder.I too am appalled that players might want to do cool but unrealistic things in my game about elf wizards fighting dragons.
To address the real question buried in your sarcasm, I'm not appalled that people want unrealistic things in their Pathfinder games, but the OP clearly marked the thread as being about real-world physics. My answer to his inquiry, "I have always wondered why "knock back" has never been in the rules. . ." is that the "knock back" he describes is primarily a product of Hollywood.
I added the personal note that I don't see Hollywood knock back as an element that needs to be added to Pathfinder. There are, however, other unrealistic elements that I'm happy Pathfinder has included, such as the three you mention, elves, magic, and dragons, as well as many others.
Fortunately for those who want knock back in Pathfinder, trip, tripping strike, bull rush, bull rush strike, and awesome blow all exist.
If you want to add Cinematic Knockback, pick up a copy of Mutants and Masterminds and convert their knockback rules (based on superheroes) to Pathfinder.
As for the "Physics" of knockback. Guns don't knock people back, and a bullet might not even knock someone down (at least not right away).
Physical attacks, well, just watch MMA, no knockback there, knockdowns yes, but knockback.
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Physical attacks, well, just watch MMA, no knockback there, knockdowns yes, but knockback.
Knock-back can definitely happen with physical attacks. It's still a question of physics: a braced (or moving to the purpose) 190-pound fighter putting a significant percentage of his mass behind a punch or kick can knock another 190-pound fighter back. (I've seen a boxer knock someone up before ... wait, that came out wrong. ("Phrasing!") I've seen a boxer lift another fighter off the ground with an uppercut before.)
I dunno much about MMA, but from what I have seen, the most powerful shots are muy thai knee kicks, which direct force upward. Most of the rest seem to be jabs and holds. But I can guarantee you that a powerful MMA fighter can knock someone back if he wants to (and his opponent isn't specifically leaning against it, as fighters do).
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No he cant. At least not without knocking himself back as well.
Knock-back is a function of momentum (and inertia, which is just another way of saying the same thing) and bracing. It is entirely possible for a fighter to generate more momentum than his opponent has inertia (and bracing).
By your argument, someone can't even push someone else away, because the pusher would fly backward as well. Surely the absurdity of that is obvious?
"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" does not mean that every reaction is a mirror of the action itself.
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When fighter knocks someone back with a strike, (like real world boxing), it's generally a side effect of the person being hit either being off balance
Being "off balance" means "not braced," which means that all the fighter has to oppose the knock-back is his own inertia. Which is certainly possible for another fighter to overcome. Thus knock-back.
Again, professional fighters can generate so much momentum that they can not only overcome their opponent's inertia laterally, they can overcome it vertically, lifting the opponent literally into the air (albeit only a few inches).
or trying to roll with the blow, or just being so dazed and confused that they need to get their bearings.
While all true, that's not what I'm talking about when I'm talking about knock-back.
5 feet of knock back sounds pretty unlikely, though certainly not impossible.
No, it's not impossible, and if the other fighter isn't braced and the attacker has a good deal of momentum, it's actually not particularly unlikely. (Consider this: your friend, a 6'5", 300-pound guy, rushes you unaware and shoves you as hard as he can from behind. It is actually likely that you'll go five feet. That's because your inertia is simply not enough to counter his momentum. That's knock-back. That's also professional football.)
But your overall point is correct: being able to knock-back reliably in PFRPG should be fairly difficult, IMO. If you wanna talk verisimilitude, it should require at least one feat -- two if there's no size difference -- and a bludgeoning weapon (including a slam or other unarmed attack).
I allow any creature two or more size categories larger than their target to initiate a free Bull Rush attempt on a successful hit.
Bludgeoning attacks remove the Bull Rush distance limitation (which states that a creature can only be moved 5' feet unless the Rushing creature moves as well).
Slam attacks reduce the size discrepancy requirement from two sizes to one.
It's a pretty simple and straightforward change that adds a lot of dynamics to the game. Fights against Giants and Golems get a lot more lively.
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Pity the game does pretty much everything in its power to make Bull Rush as useless as possible.
Now--purposefully shoving a person backwards? Or better yet shield rushing them is a thing. But as was stated feats compensate.
The feat system is one of many factors that makes Bull Rush worthless.
When I think of knockback, I am thinking superheroes. Knockback of a couple feet by someone falling form a blow, to me is not really knockback, but knocking prone. the original poster is talking about punches, strikes, and bullets doing knockback. Knockdown is much different than Knockback in terms of game mechanics.
Now pushing, or picking up someone, I would not consider knockback, but that is probably just semantics. This is covered under the Bullrush combat mechanic.
This is covered under the Bullrush combat mechanic.
And no matter how many times you say that, the Bull Rush combat maneuver won't stop being awful. Have you ever actually looked at it?
This is covered under the Bullrush combat mechanic.And no matter how many times you say that, the Bull Rush combat maneuver won't stop being awful. Have you ever actually looked at it?
Of course, but I see the need to have to "control" a mechanic like that based on the tactical rules nature of combat 3.0+ and how crowd control is king. It is what it is.
Again, if you really wanted to add a cinematic knockback, take a look a Mutants and Masterminds (D20 based), don't have the book right in front of me, but if I recall correctly, their Knockback system is damage based, and could be reversed engineered back to Pathfinder.
Of course, but I see the need to have to "control" a mechanic like that based on the tactical rules nature of combat 3.0+ and how crowd control is king. It is what it is.
I'm not sure what this game you're describing in which "spend your entire turn to deal no damage but maybe push a guy back one square if you can pass a check whose DC increases faster than your bonus" is "king" and which must be locked behind a feat in order to avoid breaking the game over its knee.
I'm pretty sure it's not Pathfinder, though.
Here is a example from a recent combat my 6th level bard's party was involved in.
Fighting powerful BBEG and some of his mooks. Round one starts, the wizard on his turn hits him with a massive Lightning Bolt hurting him. BBEG moves into melee with wizard to kill him, hits wizard almost dead. Cleric bullrushes BBEG (who at this point was still very healthy) moving him out of melees with Mage, and back into the threat area of the fighter, and and flanking him at the same time. Changed the battle right there using battlefield control. BBEG is now flanked, in two threatened areas, in melee with two powerful melee combatants who could take his hits a bit better, and open for another killer shot from the wizard.
Without said bullrush, BBEG probably kills wizard and mess up bard with his full attack, while cleric and fighter close and attack.
Just a recent example.
If you start adding KB rules to 3.0 combat you add a whole new tactical rules to the game.