I'm doing a bit of a different take on Neutral alignment. He's not just somewhere between being Good and Evil, he outright despises Good and Evil equally. As he sees it, angels and demons are using mortals as pawns in their eternal war. He wants the prime material plane to stand up for itself. His dream is that someday instead of residents of the prime material plane passing judgement on each other based on how "good" they are, angels will pass judgement on each other based on how "prime" they are.
Anyway. I'm looking for suggestions on how he could go about doing this. Sure, he'll probably have no chance of actually pulling it off unless he gets to epic levels, and maybe not even then. Either way, it's a goal he's going to be working towards.
I don't know if this is specifically pathfinder cannon, but in our campaign extra-planar creatures like demons or angels will simply re-form in their home plane after they are killed. This bugs him to no end. (I would be interested in knowing if we are wrong about this, but it has already been established in our game's cannon, so it'll be sticking around.)
He plans to learn the spell "Create soul gem". It traps a soul, and if that soul is then used as a spell component or some-such the soul is destroyed utterly. Or as it says "Most methods of using souls extinguish them completely, consigning them to oblivion. In these cases, only the direct intervention of a deity can return them to life—and sometimes not even then, such as when the soul is specifically devoured by one of the Horsemen." Seems like if you need a thorough way to get rid of someone, that's as good as it gets. (this, along with the cash values of souls, is on the "Daemons" page if you want to check my work)
Even if he does this full time he wouldn't be able to permanently kill more than six or so extra-planar creatures a day. That's not going to make a dent in their numbers, but it would make a good tool to keep specific enemies from coming back. Though it raises the philosophical question of what happens if this pushes him into an Evil alignment. Trading in mortal souls is "undeniably evil and an affront to the natural order" but their may be some wiggle room in the manipulation of non-mortal souls. Though if that's better, or much worse, or any different at all, could probably be debated all day. I'll see what my DM has to say.
Lhaksharuts (No, my cat didn't walk across the keyboard, that's a class of the "Inevitables") have "separating the planes" at the very top of their to-do list. So if they can do it, it stands to reason that it is possible to cut the planes of good and evil off from the prime material plane. Or at the very least, put more restrictions on travel between them. Maybe reduce it to a couple of well guarded gateways. Of course that would be the kind of thing you can only even think about doing when you've got a kingdom under you.
So, any other suggestions you have for carrying out this hopeless war would be appreciated.
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I toyed with running this plot as the capstone arc in a campaign.
The winning strategy was going to be allying with the ancient Qlippoths that retreated into the Abyss with the rise of the demons. Convince them that mortals are here to stay, but that a mortal-Qlippoth alliance can win them back the abyss from the demons. After gaining control of it, change how it functions so that mortal souls no longer enter or systemically recruit them.
Then the players use the powers and forces of the Abyss under their control to (after dealing with possible Qlippoth treachery) begin to undermine the rest of the planes: escalating warfare, provoking dominant extraplanars against each other, unleashed Great Old Ones from beyond the Outer Rifts, and finally, when the rest of the Great Beyond is reeling and broken, rally the Proteans in a final alliance and destroy it all, betraying them just before the carnage sweeps the Material Plane.
Eventually I decided it was too complicated, fuzzy, and long.
Well, he's not out to destroy all of the other planes. He just wants them out of mortal's business. He doesn't know if destroying the elemental plane of water would make the oceans dry up or something.
Plus, I think the endgame of that plan is a little troubling. It kind of requires a carnage tidal wave made of pure chaos to stop on a dime. Plus, I don't know much about the great old ones, but they don't sound like people you want to mess with.
Fun fact: With the knowledge (planes) skill it is a DC 15 check to "Recognize current plane" Does anyone else think that's a bit high?
"Lets see... everything's on fire, the ground is made of solid fire, the sky is a swirling mass of fire. Sooooo... I'm thinking Demi-plane of acid?"
Pluribus wrote: Well, he's not out to destroy all of the other planes. He just wants them out of mortal's business. He doesn't know if destroying the elemental plane of water would make the oceans dry up or something.
Plus, I think the endgame of that plan is a little troubling. It kind of requires a carnage tidal wave made of pure chaos to stop on a dime. Plus, I don't know much about the great old ones, but they don't sound like people you want to mess with.
Ah. My plot was unconcerned with the Inner Planes. Elemental outsiders don't generally play in the soul trade and weren't a concern. It was high-risk though, especially the endgame. If the ascended mortals weren't able to stop the Proteans, that would have been the end of existence and the rise of endless Limbo.
Pluribus wrote:
Fun fact: With the knowledge (planes) skill it is a DC 15 check to "Recognize current plane" Does anyone else think that's a bit high?
"Lets see... everything's on fire, the ground is made of solid fire, the sky is a swirling mass of fire. Sooooo... I'm thinking Demi-plane of acid?"
Maybe it's to keep their focus while on fire :)
Read up on the nation of Rahadoum. It decided long ago that both the good and evil gods are more trouble than their worth. This guy could probably use that for a start.
A character looking to utterly destroy souls, and that's before we get into his targeting celestials, can't really be called neutral. He's stepping over that line that has made daemons the most despised beings in the multiverse.
And for all his anger at outsiders meddling in mortal affairs, his willingness to destroy mortals that have passed on into the afterlife adds hypocrisy to his atrocities. After all, dead mortals become outsiders.
His actions would make him enemies of neutral outsiders as well.
Anti Aircraft... wrong planes.
His best bet is to learn how to travel to these other planes and take the war to them, killing them on their home plane should permanently kill them.
I don't really see why destroying them on their home plane would permanently kill them. If anything I imagine it would make them regenerate faster.
Oh I have no doubt that destroying souls will make him unpopular. Especially among outsiders, who are used to being immortal. However I do contend with it being inherently evil. Allow me to explain with two simple scenarios.
Town is being menaced by evil wizard. Paladin shows up and says he will defend the town. Paladin beats wizard into unconsciousness, but refuses to let anyone kill or imprison him, and lets the wizard retreat to his stronghold. Wizard spends a few days recovering and then goes right back to killing townspeople before the paladin once again beats him into unconsciousness. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Verdict? The paladin is a moron. In fact, he'll probably be demoted to lawful neutral and lose his paladinhood because he is refusing to put an end to a clear and present danger to innocent lives.
Town is being menaced by a daemon. Paladin shows up and says he will defend the town. Paladin 'kills' daemon. Daemon recovers a few days later and goes right back to killing townspeople and devouring their souls. Paladin 'kills' it again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Paladin has a Talisman of Soul-Eating that he confiscated from an evil wizard, but refuses to use it.
Verdict? What else can he do? If the paladin kills the Daemon in such a way that it won't just be back later he will be shot straight to Lawful Evil and lose his paladinhood. In fact, he'll probably get in trouble for not destroying the Talisman of Soul-Eating the moment he found it, because it's so evil and all.
Same goes for imprisoning it. If stuck in a mundane prison, or most magical prisons, a Daemon would just kill itself and revive in its own realm. Any prisons that could hold it for an extended duration, or even reliably at all, are also inherently evil.
Well, maybe flesh to stone. That depends on if your DM defines outsiders as being "flesh". Hey, then you could grind the statue into powder and scatter it to the winds... Wait, how is consigning it to an eternity of non-life less evil than destroying its soul? It's a bit more reversible I guess, you could use a Wish or something to gather the powder. Then again, depending on how you interpret Stone to Flesh you might not actually need the whole body on hand to effect the whole body.
To clarify, why is my character so willing to fight against Ex-mortals in defense of mortals? Because he doesn't see a dead soul becoming an angel as 'moving on to the afterlife' he sees it like a person killed by a zombie becoming another zombie. After all, while the book doesn't say about angels, the typical process of becoming a demon expunges all memories of life. He would hope that his friends would "put him down" if he "became one of them".
Angels and Demons predate mortals, and even now the conversion of mortal souls is not the only way they can be created. So in his opinion angels and demons are taking mortal souls and using them to create new troops for their eternal war. He sees it kind of like using a soul to create an intelligent item.
"Scholars have long debated whether the intelligence in such an item is the soul used, or if the soul is destroyed and the intelligence is only patterned on it"
He believes the latter with regard to making an angel or demon out of a mortal soul.
My bad, a little research later and it turns out that it is true that a demon killed on their home plane will stay dead. Sorry I dismissed that.
I still say it makes no sense, but those are the rules. You were right Vod Canockers.
Also, a common consequence of being killed is getting demoted. So a demon does get weaker each time they 're-spawn'. Though it seems to be more of a "You have failed me and shall be punished" thing than a natural consequence. So for the sake of argument lets just say the demon in my example isn't getting demoted between deaths for whatever reason. Or at least the paladin would have to kill him like twenty times before he stopped being a threat to the civilians of the town.
Pluribus wrote: My bad, a little research later and it turns out that it is true that a demon killed on their home plane will stay dead. Sorry I dismissed that.
I still say it makes no sense, but those are the rules. You were right Vod Canockers.
Also, a common consequence of being killed is getting demoted. So a demon does get weaker each time they 're-spawn'. Though it seems to be more of a "You have failed me and shall be punished" thing than a natural consequence. So for the sake of argument lets just say the demon in my example isn't getting demoted between deaths for whatever reason. Or at least the paladin would have to kill him like twenty times before he stopped being a threat to the civilians of the town.
When you kill an Outsider on the Prime Material Plane, its "soul" or whatever retreats back to its plane of origin. When you kill it on its home plane, the "soul" cannot retreat because it is already home.
About the soul gem thing.
A Cacodaemon Familiar can create soulgems out of opponents that died in the last minute(wich is totally op seeing that this is a 9th level spell effect, but hey).
Now I know that your character is supposed to hate evil outsiders but maybe you can flavour it as him enslaving the cacodaemon and using it to further his goals.
Also I don't think your alignment is at stake when you direct your anger at both good and evil outsiders.
I have to admit that I never really grasped the rime and reason behind how the alignment system works but if killing an evil outsider is good(and it seems to be so) then how can trapping his soul to prevent him from raising again be so evil?
Also the afore mentioned proteans are about as chaotic neutral as it gets and they are actively trying to destroy the whole universe and are fighting wars against both good and evil outsiders.
That apparently doesn't affect their alignment either so maybe its just the philosophy behind what you are doing that determines your alignment.
From what is described, even taking out the some mortal souls become outsiders thing, the end result of what he wants sounds more like it would consign every mortal to die to oblivion.
Also, you're mixing up devil and demons. Devils predate humanity. Demons in the golarion cosmology came about because of mortal sin and as such demons were wrought after their advent.
The NPC wrote: From what is described, even taking out the some mortal souls become outsiders thing, the end result of what he wants sounds more like it would consign every mortal to die to oblivion.
Also, you're mixing up devil and demons. Devils predate humanity. Demons in the golarion cosmology came about because of mortal sin and as such demons were wrought after their advent.
Who is mixing up devils and demons?
And about the souls:Those souls that already became outsiders are outsiders now so thats over.And whos to say that the souls of the dead don't start a circle of natural reincarnation if they are cut off from the "graveyard" planes?
EDIT: Actually this seems like it would be a druids dream scenario.
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Sleet Storm wrote:
Also the afore mentioned proteans are about as chaotic neutral as it gets and they are actively trying to destroy the whole universe and are fighting wars against both good and evil outsiders.
That apparently doesn't affect their alignment either so maybe its just the philosophy behind what you are doing that determines your alignment.
Saying that they're trying to destroy the multiverse is such a lawful perspective. :)
They're trying to free everyone from the rigid constraints and tyranny of laws, rules, and static reality callously imposed by everything outside of the Maelstrom. If they didn't have to kill anyone to get there, all the better, but other creatures are often so unwilling or afraid of being utterly and truly free, and they fight, as do the other outsiders responsible for upholding Law.
The old slaadi wanted to eat you. Proteans want to free you, in every meaning of the word, and by a myriad of ways, some of them violent, but most more subtle (or insidious).
Sleet Storm wrote: And whos to say that the souls of the dead don't start a circle of natural reincarnation if they are cut off from the "graveyard" planes? Who's to say they do? I mean, looking at the nearest thing to RAW I can find souls who cling to the world of the living after death are... undead.
So it would be probably wise to prepare for worldwide undead pandemics if you succeed from all the souls prevented from passing on to their final resting place. I guess you could try to make everyone immortal... which would also solve your problem in another way, though it comes with its own heap of problems no doubt.
Quote: Also I don't think your alignment is at stake when you direct your anger at both good and evil outsiders. I would be careful with this line of thinking. I know if I were your DM I would probably not agree. IMO killing a deomn for every angel that you murder does not somehow cleanse your soul of the latter deed, any more than someone who gives to homeless charity for every homeless person he kills is a solid neutral. He's just a more f#@*ed up in the head evil.
Your DM may not think as I do, though, so probably chat with him and see if he is okay with the whole canceling out your evil deeds thing. If so, a lot of methods that the people in this thread reject may be open to you. Or if you are okay with being evil...?
I don't know as much about pathfinder as I do about 3.5 but in 3.5 they explained demons cone from a never-ending source of chaos. Angels and other celestials were created to combat these demons. Over time they became corrupted in nature from fighting them constantly and some angels fell eventually (Asmodeus and the other archdevils) with all of that in mind, it may just be a better idea to combat them until your character can develop an epic spell to block travel from the outer planes to the material plane...
Well as I said I think its a matter of the grand concept behind those actions.It seems wierd to me that the "good" side of the alignment axis somehow has the say about changing your alignment and the other sides don't.
For instance some people seem to think you're not changing from neutral to good just by killing evil guys but you definitely do become evil by killing good guys.Now that might or might not hold up to real world logics , but in a game where the default standard of getting what you want is hitting the guy who has what you want on the head with a big stick it isnt feasible IMO.
Good guys kill bad guys.
How did bad guys become bad guys?
Presumably by killing good guys.
See the circular logic here?Can neutral guys only kill neutral guys if they want to keep their alignment?
You should at least somehow be able to remain neutral when fighting against both sides, especially when dealing with the planes.
All proteans and elementals are neutral, all of them ,by alignment and by type.
They oppose both sides of the the good-evil conflict or don't care about it at all.
Those same options should be available to PC's.
If your goal is really the ascendancy of the Material Plane and a measure of isolation from the meddling of the Outsiders then I believe it is an achievable goal well within the bounds of neutrality. It's simply a long game.
Phase One: Found and build a grassroots agnostic movement. A groundswell of doubt and skepticism won't appeal to most of the outsiders and demonstrating miracles achieved through dedication to a cause (rather than piety) will empower your people.
Phase Two: Establish a rapport with the more aloof cosmological powers. You should already be positively inclined towards their hands off nature and they towards your unwillingness to be party of the games of the gods. Leverage this rapport to provide the extreme planar powers a disincentive for involvement in your world. Somewhere along the way achieve immortality.
Phase Three: Create a demiplane large enough to encompass the planet. This may well drain the resources of the entire world, but if you assign it the Strongly Neutral Aligntment trait and the Dead Magic traits (or even just Dead Magic: Conjuration), you will have created a world that is unlikely to garner much attention and would be a one-way trip for a stubborn interloper. As a side effect of the alignment trait the inhabitants of your world will be largely numbed to the need for conflict.
Phase Four: Retire and try not to ever recognize that you've had as monumental and potentially unwelcome an influence on your world as the planar forces ever could have had.
Here's my take on it, the character is evil and insane. Pharasma's psychopomps ought to be showing up to take his soul any minute now... Along with everyone else. Heck, if I were a normal person, I'd volunteer to murder him, no hesitation. Reason?
1) He's trying to screw with the natural order of the universe.
2) Allying with the Qlippoth? Those guys got Sarenrae and Asmodeus to work together.
3) You want to destroy good souls, permanently. Hard to get more evil than that. That he also wishes to destroy evil souls does not make him good. The alignment of what you fight doesn't determine your alignment. Your actions determine your alignment.
Peasant wrote: Somewhere along the way achieve immortality.
Phase Three: Create a demiplane large enough to encompass the planet. This may well drain the resources of the entire world, but if you assign it the Strongly Neutral Aligntment trait and the Dead Magic traits (or even just Dead Magic: Conjuration), you will have created a world that is unlikely to garner much attention and would be a one-way trip for a stubborn interloper. As a side effect of the alignment trait the inhabitants of your world will be largely numbed to the need for conflict.
I just have to say that I laughed out loud when I saw that "become immortal" doesn't even warrant its own step in this process, it's just an "oh by the way..."
Overall, it's an interesting proposition, but again it's a bit too extreme. This would severely cripple the mortal world in the process. He doesn't want to win by making the mortal world not worth bothering with. He wants the mortal world to be dominant over the rest of the planes, or at least be a major player rather than a constant victim.
Vod Canockers wrote: When you kill an Outsider on the Prime Material Plane, its "soul" or whatever retreats back to its plane of origin. When you kill it on its home plane, the "soul" cannot retreat because it is already home. Well yeah, but it's a big plane. Why can't they just retreat to a different part of it? Apparently it's somehow easier to cross planar boundaries than it is to go two blocks west.
Sleet Storm wrote: Also I don't think your alignment is at stake when you direct your anger at both good and evil outsiders. I think the key word here is "anger". I think the reason you do things is the most important part of alignment. If you kill a tyrannical king because you're angry at how he treats his subjects, then you are a good guy. If you kill a tyrannical king because you're angry that he copied your haircut, then you are a dangerously evil lunatic.
The nature of his beef with the alignments is that he sees Good and Evil as using the prime material plane as a recruiting ground, or at worst, as a cattle farm. Even if it turns out that this was the very reason the material plane was created, it's time for them to revolt. So his anger is not a 'hatred' so much as it is a revolutionary spirit.
Lloyd Jackson wrote: Here's my take on it, the character is evil and insane. Pharasma's psychopomps ought to be showing up to take his soul any minute now... Along with everyone else. Heck, if I were a normal person, I'd volunteer to murder him, no hesitation. Reason? I think you're a little confused.
Lloyd Jackson wrote: 1) He's trying to screw with the natural order of the universe. So is any character who tries to become a god once they reach epic levels. You don't think having a new god in the pantheon would cause monumental and sweeping changes in the mortal realm?
Lloyd Jackson wrote: 2) Allying with the Qlippoth? Those guys got Sarenrae and Asmodeus to work together. You're confusing him for someone else. That was the plan Ximen Bao suggested. The very plan that I said my character would not attempt because it was too extreme and dangerous.
Lloyd Jackson wrote: 3) You want to destroy good souls, permanently. Hard to get more evil than that. That he also wishes to destroy evil souls does not make him good. The alignment of what you fight doesn't determine your alignment. Your actions determine your alignment. I'm afraid your logic is flawed. killing is evil... So by that logic all the angels are evil because they kill demons. If killing isn't evil... well then we've got a lot of people we need to let out of our prisons.
Logically, angels and demons would make raids into each other's realms. And since killing an angel or demon in its own realm destroys its soul, angels are also guilty of destroying the souls of demons.
And even if "killing" isn't necessarily evil I think we could all agree that "murder" is evil by definition.... I tried to dramatically deconstruct this juxtapose, but I couldn't think of anything better than just letting it speak for itself.
Lloyd Jackson wrote: -- the character is evil and insane. -- if I were a normal person, I'd volunteer to murder him, no hesitation.
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The alignment of what you fight doesn't determine your alignment. Your actions determine your alignment.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ishpumalibu wrote: I don't know as much about pathfinder as I do about 3.5 but in 3.5 they explained demons cone from a never-ending source of chaos. Angels and other celestials were created to combat these demons. Over time they became corrupted in nature from fighting them constantly and some angels fell eventually (Asmodeus and the other archdevils) with all of that in mind, it may just be a better idea to combat them until your character can develop an epic spell to block travel from the outer planes to the material plane... The cosmology and background in Pathfinder is very different from 3.5 - Checking out the three Book of the Damned is a great place to start if you are interested in how Pathfinder utilizes evil outsiders.
In Pathfinder neither demons nor daemons existed until after mortal life began.
Pluribus wrote: Peasant wrote: Somewhere along the way achieve immortality.
Phase Three: Create a demiplane large enough to encompass the planet. This may well drain the resources of the entire world, but if you assign it the Strongly Neutral Aligntment trait and the Dead Magic traits (or even just Dead Magic: Conjuration), you will have created a world that is unlikely to garner much attention and would be a one-way trip for a stubborn interloper. As a side effect of the alignment trait the inhabitants of your world will be largely numbed to the need for conflict.
I just have to say that I laughed out loud when I saw that "become immortal" doesn't even warrant its own step in this process, it's just an "oh by the way..."
Overall, it's an interesting proposition, but again it's a bit too extreme. This would severely cripple the mortal world in the process. He doesn't want to win by making the mortal world not worth bothering with. He wants the mortal world to be dominant over the rest of the planes, or at least be a major player rather than a constant victim.
For the sort of obsessive and unhinged personality that would try my plan, immortality or anything else that is simply a means to the end would feel like a footnote. :)
On the far less extreme side of things, skip straight to a scaled down version of Phase 4. Create a demiplane in which conjuration magic does not work. The natural advantages of outsiders will be significantly lessened in its environs and casual trespass will probably become uncommon as word gets around. Establish a center of learning in the demiplane, focused on empowering its students to think and act for themselves instead of taking on the role of pawns in a greater being's plan. Send students forth to share what they've learned. While the outsiders will still be /able/ to meddle whenever they want and may remain a background presence in a perfectly functional world, their meddling will generally be less successful and they'll probably backburner interest in your world for a few centuries. Outsiders have infinite time and countless things to command their attention after all. You now have a world that gets a chance to rise on its own with far less interference... and nothing that even remotely imperils a neutral stance.
As for coming to dominate the other planes or becoming a 'major' player... that's up to future generations to figure out once you've laid the groundwork for them to have a chance. A more aggressive posture is just asking for trouble, though there's no reason you couldn't circulate rumors that the students of your school are trained in the art of soul gem manufacture, dismissal, forbiddance, and other tricks that outsiders don't especially want to confront if they don't have to.
chavamana wrote: In Pathfinder neither demons nor daemons existed until after mortal life began. Hrm, that does change things a little. Though I think it is worth noting that evil souls would have remained as inert larva if it weren't for someone coming along and messing with them.
Now, what has been nagging at me is that this among many other things we've discussed here may not be common knowledge. I mean if being able to tell the planes apart is a DC 15 knowledge(planes) check (and the planes are NOT subtle) then the requirements of knowing their really intimate details has got to be ridiculous.
Plus the world he's in can't even remember the last time it had a resident over level 5. So nobody has known spells like Plane Shift or even Raise Dead in recorded history. They have however dealt with other planes' (particularly demons) incursions.
So while I, using a searchable SRD, can bring up all these facts, it is really hard to figure out what he, living in a pseudo medieval society, ought to know about all this.
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Good point from Todd on proteans: They don't seek oblivion, they seek freedom of concept and form. Daemons would actually be anathema to them, because those things seek a final state.
I think this concept has fallen into the trap of seeing Good as portrayed as "Good in name only". Celestials don't just kill fiends or other evil things. They redeem and protect. Good and evil function very differently, otherwise you're not dealing with good and evil, you're dealing with red and blue. There is more to celestials than the war between Good and Evil, and it should also be noted that angels, devils, and demons do work together if the risk to the multiverse is great enough, such as protecting the souls of dead mortals from daemons.
I still say this character is crossing many horrific lines. There's a difference between death, a transition that everyone goes through, and oblivion, which is what this character seeks to visit upon all the souls of those already dead. Death is not the end, but a transition between one state of being to another in a long chain of transitions souls travel through. What this character seeks to do is to break that life cycle, regardless of what all the other souls in the multiverse truly want.
It doesn't matter if his warped view can justify it to himself, the fact remains that he's seeking to commit genocide against souls. The revenge fantasy motivation of "making the immortals fear death as mortals do" doesn't even come close to justifying it.
And again, there are a lot of misunderstandings of the vanilla cosmology at work here. Celestials, fiends, psychopomps, proteans...they're all us ultimately. They're steps that souls take on their way trhough(and beyond) the known multiverse. You'll also never put a dent in their numbers because these are souls from all living beings across every world in the multiverse.
So you won't just be waging your war against the dead. You'll be waging it against every world that cares about protecting both the natural order, the souls of those already gone, and the souls of those yet to be born. After all, natural reincarnation is a thing in this cosmology.
And that brings up another question: Would the party be willing to aid or even stand by and allow such a character to attempt such a thing? Especially if any of them worship gods, have any strong beliefs about their ancestors, or have dead loved ones.
I don't mean to be negative, but as you start getting more noticably powerful, you're going to become a target. Being a target of archangels, demon Lords, etc simultaneously seems to be a death sentence, get deities involved and...well I just don't see it working. Just figured I'd bring up a different aspect of the situation besides the moral debate.
Again, he's not out to destroy Good or Evil. He would use Soul Gems to deal with persistent threats. Using it for self defense, not to start a campaign of destruction. Without a means of permanently dealing with outsiders what are his options if an angel or demon decides they want to kill him and they're willing to try more than once? Bend over?
He is not trying to "break the natural cycle". He is not trying to make Good and Evil cease to exist. He does believe that angels and demons are not the mortals that they used to be. As such, he would not feel as bad about destroying one. That does not me he intends to start a campaign of genocide. He is trying to get them to stop using the Prime Material plane as their whipping boy.
Okay, to emphasize once more.
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He is not out to destroy all the angels and demons.
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I do not get why people keep assuming this. In the very beginning of my first post I presented his ideal endgame. And it explicitly involves angels still being around.
Pluribus wrote: His dream is that someday instead of residents of the prime material plane passing judgement on each other based on how "good" they are, angels will pass judgement on each other based on how "prime" they are. Best I can figure is that people misinterpreted my intention in saying...
Pluribus wrote: Even if he does this full time he wouldn't be able to permanently kill more than six or so extra-planar creatures a day. That's not going to make a dent in their numbers, I did not mean that this was the only thing stopping him from committing genocide. I was pointing out that he knew it would be stupid to attempt genocide. Independent of whether or not he wanted to (which he doesn't), it just isn't a good idea in general.
Other than that, perhaps I was a bit too enthusiastic in my wording of his potential to deal with persistent outsiders.
So... let me try to state his goal one more time. For the record, I'll use the term "demon" to refer to Evil outsiders in general, and "angel" to refer to Good outsiders in general.
He's upset that demons think they can stomp about causing trouble any time they find an open portal, and for all their sermonizing the angels never seem to show up to do anything about it.
So he wants the demons to buzz off, and he doesn't want the angels to think that they can just step into the power vacuum. He might accomplish this by, for example, making it harder for angels and demons to gain physical access to the Prime Material plane. Like I mentioned at the end of my first post.
He would also like the Prime Material plane to have a voice in planar politics instead of just being at the mercy of everyone else.
Other people can have whatever alignments they want. Clerics, paladins, the whole deal. After all, it's not the gods he has a beef with. He certainly wouldn't mind a social trend towards neutrality, but he's not going to force it.
He doesn't turn his attention to Law and Chaos because they haven't really been making a nuisance of themselves. He would be willing to give them the same treatment if it's reasonably convenient, or they do start becoming a problem.
Well I feel that explains a bit more of what you're looking to accomplish. I thought you were trying to block all travel to and from the material plane. To be honest wouldn't his goals be most easily achievable by hunting down cults (not necessarily killing them) and putting a ban on summoning outsiders? (through influence of persuasion, or rulership? It seems that for the most part mortals are summoning them to your house.
Honestly, its the "Judge them by how prime they are" that strikes me as the weirdest part. The residents of the material plane have their morality informed even if indirectly by those powers. The material plane doesn't have a standard of its own.
The NPC wrote: Honestly, its the "Judge them by how prime they are" that strikes me as the weirdest part. The residents of the material plane have their morality informed even if indirectly by those powers. The material plane doesn't have a standard of its own. That's pretty much exactly his point. He thinks it's time for the material plane to stop defining itself by other's ideals and develop their own standard. It's... unlikely that this will happen.
At the very least he would like to make the material plane enough of a presence in politics that outsiders actually care about it. I figure it might work by creating the alignment of "Prime vrs Planar". For instance, a Lawful Prime Good outsider is very concerned about what happens on the prime material plane and would actually bother to show up to help with significant events. A Chaotic Planar Evil outsider wouldn't bother with the mortal world and would focus on the outer realms.
As it stands now it seems most Good outsiders are Planar. How often do you hear about angels actually coming to the mortal world without being summoned/petitioned/bribed?
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