Courageous, Ghost Rager, and Touch AC

[QueasyPhil]

tl;dr:
1) Can you double dip on the benefit from Courageous when determining Superstition's saving throws and converting to Ghost Rager's Touch AC bonus?
2) Does Ghost Rager's Touch AC bonus apply to incorporeal touch attacks, or all touch attacks?

The Barbarian's Ghost Rager rage power provides a couple benefits:

Ghost Rager:

While raging, the barbarian deals normal damage to incorporeal creatures even when using nonmagical weapons. She also gains a morale bonus to touch AC equal to her saving throw bonus from her superstition rage power.

And the rather Barbarian-friendly magic weapon property Courageous:

Courageous:

This special ability can only be added to a melee weapon.

A courageous weapon fortifies the wielder's courage and morale in battle. The wielder gains a morale bonus on saving throws against fear equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus. In addition, any morale bonus the wielder gains from any other source is increased by half the weapon's enhancement bonus (minimum 1).

The Superstition rage power is also a morale bonus and therefore, benefits from Courageous. Does the enhancement bonus of the weapon essentially get "double-dipped" when determining the Barbarian's Touch AC? Here's an example for those who want one:

Example:

Whilst naked Bob (the level 20 Barbarian) has a 12 Dex, granting him an AC of 11. He picks up his +4 Courageous Longsword and rages, because he can't find his pants. Will his Touch AC become 22 or 20? Essentially, the two formulas are as follows:

Touch AC (20) = 10+Dex(1)+Modified Superstition(7+2)
Touch AC (22) = 10+Dex(1)+(Modified Superstition(7+2)+Courageous(2))

The morale saving throw bonus from Superstition is modified by Courageous. That saving throw bonus is then added to the Touch AC as a morale bonus, triggering the boost from Courageous.

If I wanted to craft my Barbarian to win, I would try to argue that RAW allows this since they are two separate morale bonuses. However, the whole thing just seems shady and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if the DM shot it down. Per RAW, what is allowed?

Bonus Question: Does the Touch AC bonus apply to just touch attacks from incorporeal creatures or ALL touch attacks? Ghost Rager doesn't specify, but it feels that it is meant to deal with incorporeals. On the other hand, Ghost Rager does list Superstition as a prerequisite and that DOES deal with all magic.

[CrystalSpellblade]

As far as I know, it would be 20 as Morale Bonuses don't stack, only the highest one is used. So he would gain 10+1(Dex)+9 Ghost Rager(7 from Superstition, 2 from half the bonus on the sword).

[QueasyPhil]

CrystalSpellblade wrote:

As far as I know, it would be 20 as Morale Bonuses don't stack, only the highest one is used. So he would gain 10+1(Dex)+9 Ghost Rager(7 from Superstition, 2 from half the bonus on the sword).

So, you're saying that Ghost Rager adds a "pre-Courageous" Superstition bonus to your Touch AC which is then boosted by the sword? I'm cool with that.

And what about Ghost Rager's AC bonus vs. corporeal touch attacks?

P.S.: Forgot the -2 Rage penalty to AC in the example. Oh well, you knew what I was asking.

[CrystalSpellblade]

Ummm...Sort of. Ghost Rager adds the Superstition Rage Power's saving throw bonus to her Touch AC. Without the sword, at 20th level he would gain +7 from Superstition(2 + 5(1 per 4 lvls attained, which at 20 is 5)). When he uses the sword, his Superstition is increased by half of the enhancement bonus on the sword(another 2 in this case).

The source of it is still Superstition Rage Power, I just broke down the numbers to keep it in line with your example. And yeah, I forgot the -2 AC while raging.

As for the it working against Corporeal Touch Attack, as far as I can tell, it works just fine. Ghost Rager just says its a bonus to Touch AC, nothing more.

EDIT: Then again, I think I may have been wrong in my first assessment of it and that it might actually "double-dip". Both Ghost Rager and Superstition are different sources of Morale Bonuses, so it might actually first modify Superstition, then modify Ghost Rager and I'm really starting to think it would be 22(20 after the -2 AC is taken into account).

[D'arandriel]

Any other opinions on how this would work? Would I be able to apply the bonus from courageous twice? Once to the morale bonus to saving throws from Superstitious and then once more to the morale bonus to AC from Superstitious.

I think that since these are two different types of morale bonuses, I should be able to double dip with courageous, but admittedly, it seems cheesy.

[Howie23]

Superstition gives a scaling morale bonus to some saves. At 20th level, that's +7

Ghost Rager gives a morale bonus to touch AC equal to the bonus from Superstition. So, at 20th level, that's +7

Courageous gives a morale bonus on fear saves. It also augments morale bonuses from other sources. The bonus vs. fear from a +4 Courageous sword is +4; it augments morale bonuses from other sources by +2.

With a 12 Dex, his touch AC is 18 (+1 Dex, +9 morale (+7 from Ghost rager, +2 modification from courageous), -2 rage). The touch AC would be 18 vs. all sources. He doesn't double dip the +2 from courageous.

Saves are more complex; he's getting morale bonus from multiple sources, but because they're the same type, he'll only get the best of the morale modifies, as augmented by courageous. In particular, watch out for Will saves (modified by rage) that are also spell, spell-like, or superstitous (modified by superstition); he won't get both the bonus from superstition and from rage, just the better of them as modified by courageous.

[Kiinyan]

I see a lot of people saying it doesn't double-dip, but I'm not seeing your reasoning behind it.

There are two parts to the Ghost Rager power:"She also gains a morale bonus to touch AC equal to her saving throw bonus from her superstition rage power."

So it is both a morale bonus, and it is based of superstition.

Based on superstition bonus: it is increased by 2 from the sword. So at 20th level it's +9 from a +4 sword. Superstition is now a +9, making the base Ghost Rager (which is based off superstition) +9.

Now Ghost rager is a morale bonus (this is exclusive from superstition being a morale bonus. Ghost Rager says it's equal to the superstition modifier, not is the superstition modifier) so it too gets the courageous bonus.

At least, this is how I see it.

[Howie23]

The argument that they double dip is dependent on stacking bonuses of the same type from the same source.

Bonuses of the same type don't stack. Untyped bonuses from the same source do not stack. This statement about same source is from the magic section on the interaction of effects. It seems pretty clear to me that this is there to plug the gap that otherwise is plugged by the general rule. This is a magical effect from the same source.

This may not do the job 100% for everyone. If there is a clear rule that I'm missing that states that bonuses from the same source don't stack, it would wrap it up.

[D'arandriel]

I think it can be argued that since one is morale bonus to saves and the other is a morale bonus to AC, they are two different morale bonuses, and therefore the courageous weapon enchantment should apply to both. Although my common sense tells me that since I'm already applying the courageous bonus to Superstitious already, it just doesn't "feel" right to apply it again, even though its to AC instead of saving throws.

I would certainly like to be convinced otherwise.

[MrSin]

Is the bonus to saves still part of superstitious? If so I would think you would apply an additional +2 to ghost rager. I don't know why stacking bonuses comes up in the conversation.