Monk / Cleric Unarmed Debuff build (Bad Touch)

[Praetorae]

Hi all,

As a very new player to Pathfinder (and tabletop RPG's in general) I was hoping to put a build idea I've been thinking about forward for some of the more experienced players to comment and improve/pick apart and trash as appropriate!

I really fancy playing a Cleric. Having read through the various guides that I could find and the Rulebooks I have access to, I quite like the sound of a support build, the 'Reach Cleric' seems well optimised, but I really fancy playing a 'Bad Touch' or Debuff Cleric with a LN alignment.

Searching through the details Paoizo have released for the various deities I came across Tsukiyo (from the Dragon Empires Gazetteer). His Domains look excellent for a debuff Cleric; Darkness, Good, Law, Madness, Repose (sub-domains; Ancestors, Archon, Insanity, Moon, Night, Souls), emphasis mine. He is a LG God which allows me to be LN and which I feel fits with the idea of using 'evil' spells from his Domains in the cause of the greater good.

I though about using one of the races introduced in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer. Samsaran's obviously fit well with the deity (and their alternate Racial trait, Mystic Past Life, looks really good). Tengu have good +stats for the Cleric (Wiz & Dex), but the -2 Con both races have I feel would really hurt for a Cleric that needs to get into Touch range a lot. For flavour, especially with the darkness Domain, using a Tengu provides plenty of RP though. However, in the end you just can't really go wrong with Human.

Stats would Prioritise WIS>DEX>CON>STR>CHA>INT

Skills would prioritise Acrobatics / Perception / Stealth / Sense Motive / Heal

Favoured Class would be Cleric with points going to hit points.

To Start the build I was thinking a 2 level dip into Monk (Sensei Arch type) provides a lot of benefits. This gets me Unarmed Strike & Stunning Fist. My high Wis would work well with the AC Bonus for these 2 levels (until I start wearing armour) and the bonus feat is always useful (Dodge or maybe Combat Reflexes seem good choices).
Sensei Arch type then provides the Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage to replace Flurry of Blows, a good trade for this build I think.

(Other options for a single level dip would be Monk of the Lotus for the Touch of Serenity or the Flowing Monk for Agile Manoeuvres bonus feat and the Redirection ability.)

With my 2 feats from Human I would take Mobility (having picked up Dodge earlier) and Improved Initiative.

Level 2 in Monk using the Sensei Arch type gets me Insightful Strike. Using Wis for various combat rolls seems like a really good option for this build.

Level 3 I cross over to Cleric, choosing Darkness (moon sub-Domain possibly for RP flavour given my deity) and Madness as my Domains. With my new feat I take Domain Strike (Vision of Madness). I also gain blind fighting as a bonus feat.

From here I only take levels in Cleric, picking up feats such as Scribe Scroll, Reach Spell, Spring Attack, Bouncing Spell, Domain Strike (Touch of Darkness) and some of the other good metamagic feats for my favourite spells. Depending how the campaign is going and as long as I survive that long.

Points I'm wondering about;

It annoys me that I haven't found a way to really make use of Tsukiyo's preferred weapon, the Longspear (Reach). I feel that there should be a way of making use of this and getting the benefits of a reach weapon - perhaps later when It can become conductive. But then a lot of the extras I get from the Monk dip aren't worthwhile.

Does delaying becoming a Cleric for 2 levels set me back too far in terms of Caster level?

Is the Sensei Arch type (specifically the Insightful strike ability) worth it? I notice quite a few builds picking up Touch of Serenity when they can, which a Monk of the Lotus could get with only a single level dip.

Can I take Mobility as my human feat at level 1 given that I took Dodge (the prerequisite) for my Monk bonus feat seconds earlier?

I've noticed that I could potentially combine the Sensei Arch type with either Flowing Monk, or Monk of the Lotus (but not with both). I suspect combining them this way would make the build more powerful but this tactic does seem a bit 'cheesy'.

And finally, do you think my build will work? Obviously it is not an amazingly optimised build and I don't really want to be over-powered, but I'd also quite like to feel that I am pulling my weight in a party. Any suggestions, criticisms or points for improvement would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers all,

Praetorae

[Cornielius]

Sensei monk gives:
Insightful Strike (Ex): At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

I don't see a reach spear like weapon to replace the longspear, but there is:
Tiger fork 5 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 — 8 lbs. P Brace, monk

Perhaps your GM will allow the substitution.
You would have to spend a feat to be proficient (I think), but it would allow you to continue use your wisdon bonus for attacks.

Or is this for Pathfinder society?

[LazyCorpse]

While 2 levels of monk offers a lot towards Bad touch, I feel that they are not the best way to go for a Bad Touch build.
The primary reason is caster level and spells.

By the time you get to 2nd level spells, you will be a CL3 facing 5th level challenges, your DCs will be lower than they need to be, and so will your spell selection. Remember, bad touch isn't just about domain abilities, but also about spells that debuff your targets.

I recommend going Cleric from the start, Human. keep the stat priorities the same. Feats would be at first level Improved unarmed Strike and Domain Strike (Touch of Madness). That will allow you to excel at using your domain abilities at first level, plus allow you to keep a monk flavor for fluff. Stay in light armor, chain shirt if possible for mobility.

At third level you can pick up Weapon finesse, which then drives your strikes by Dex, instead of Str.

From there, several style feats are nice to strive for, Dragon in particular, since it helps ignore difficult terrain for some types of actions, and allows you to charge through allies squares, which is really nice. I suggest reading Tark's guide, at the end he talks about bad touch clerics, though I would love more of an expansion on them. Guide is located here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6-_4HvPvV-Tt7I67Gi_oPhgHmeDVA5SBl-WrJS gf5s/edit?hl=en#

Again, going monk looks like it adds great features, but in my opinion, you lose out on what you really need, caster level and spells, so the bonuses aren't worth it. It's a shame...

[master_marshmallow]

am i the only one who thought of this?