|
I keep trying to think of a way to make a good build based around bull rush or overrun. Got a list with tons of options that give bonuses and such. Thing is, none of it deals much damage.
Overrun is can mostly be replicated by an acrobatics check, with a lot less feats.
Bull rush moves the target back, and I guess that it's nice that the target can't full-attack next turn.
But are either of these really worth specializing in?
I keep trying to think of a way to make a good build based around bull rush or overrun. Got a list with tons of options that give bonuses and such. Thing is, none of it deals much damage.
Overrun is can mostly be replicated by an acrobatics check, with a lot less feats.
Bull rush moves the target back, and I guess that it's nice that the target can't full-attack next turn.
But are either of these really worth specializing in?
Honestly, I think except in rare instances or under certain circumstances the combat maneuver feats aren't worth the investment in the long run. As you level up so many things either stop being affected by them or to do so is so difficult you're much better off building to other strengths. I particularly think the major advantage to Bullrush is neutered by the fact that you can't push someone into 'dangerous squares' like that of a Wall of Fire.
Having said that, if you decide you want to chase that concept - because after all its not about optimizing, its about fun - then I would reccomend that you look at the Brawler archetype for Fighters as a place to start. Also consider some ways of increasing your size and strength such as the Orc Bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats.
overrun can be great. charge that wizard in the back, overrunning the fighter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
overrun can be great. charge that wizard in the back, overrunning the fighter.
Sure, until that wizard is actually invisible and FLYING, then I'd like to see you charge him while overrunning the fighter.
I completely agree with Damocles, things like Bull Rush, Trip, and Overrun are good at lower levels. BUT! They get considerably weaker at higher levels when things are BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER, FLYING, have EXTRA LEGS, or are just plain IMMUNE to these kinds of maneuvers. So my advice is take them at your own risk.
If you don't care about how situational they are and just want the flavor, then do what you want and have fun.
hmm... goggles of true sight and... hurling charge, duck under tree to block LoE? >.>
Barbarian can also work well, particularly for overrun - rage bonuses to Str, lots of movement, and there are some neat rage powers to go with it.
I agree with the concerns offered above about how most combat maneuvers lose effectiveness at higher levels, but depending on the type of game, they can work out pretty well. If you suspect the game won't get past mid-levels, if you know it's going to involve a lot of tight spaces (like some serious dungeon crawls) and/or if the chief opponents in the game are humanoids, then it can be pretty effective.
Otherwise, most maneuvers are "sometimes" powers, to be pulled out when they happen to work. A very small investment (one or two feats tops, usually just Improved and Greater) should be enough. Bull Rush and Overrun are appealing in this respect as you'll probably want Power Attack anyway.
Would this not work best with a Heavy Shield and Armor Spikes?
Things like Shield Slam and Spiked Destroyer?
Basically, two hand the shield, and supplement with the spikes.
This is one of my favourite builds; I've tried it out and it's delightful. Feats and abilities (like Shield Slam) that give you free maneuvers are nice, as you don't have to justify spending an action when you have a low probability of success.
shield slam is a good way to go for bullrush... (using a weapon, it benefits from weapon specific bonuses unlike normal BR - although the FAQ doesn't mention this specific case)
also, barbarian knockback is very good (also works with reach weapons: yay! ...same deal on weapon bonus FAQ)
barbarian knockback is acquirable with a 2 level dip.
barbarians also have strength surge (+BarbLevel->CMB/CMD), which works for both BR and OR,
actually for ALL maneuvers, offensively AND defensively, so it's a very versatile power to take.
as mentioned, OR is pretty much like acrobatics, you can really optimize around one or the other,
i would say that OR as CMB has more top end optimization potential than Tumble, especially using weapons, but it's probably very close and Tumble would be more optimizable at the low end, and has the main advantage that you can Tumble thru many people, while OR does not have that ability (at least by default from the beginning).
but if you want to do BOTH OR/Tumble and BR, I would say go with OR, since it uses STR by default, otherwise to use Tumble you need to DEX optimize, which means you will need at least 1 more Feat (Finesse) to use DEX with light weapons (you are already spending feats on marginal abilities), and most shields you can BR with are not light weapons (barring a barb archetype i believe, but if you are barb you can just use knockback anyways with any weapon).
i would say another option to consider instead of normal OR / Tumble, is acquiring the ability to Trample somehow, same sort of effect, just works nicer than vanilla OR.
if you are going for 'mobility / can't be pinned down', check out the brawler barbarian archetype (maybe name is wrong), it gives a minor bonus to different maneuvers CMB/CMD and you can always take an AoO when something tries to Grapple you... i'm not sure, but the wording plausibly suggests that this is the same AoO that happens when non-improved grapples are attempted, meaning any damage increases the DC (i.e. your CMD).
|
Ok so here's what I came up with. This is based on some of the new stuff.
So let's start with the siege breaker fighter architype. At level one you can bull rush or over run without provoking an aoo. Also when you use one of these maneuvers successfully you deal damage equal to your str mod. If you have the improved feat this damage is doubled. At level 2 after a successful bull rush you get a free over run.Next we look at the shield slam feat. It says that you get a free bull rush attempt after a successful shield bash attack. And you are allowed to use a shield in two hands for X1.5str.
Next is the new style feats. The bulette style. You want the third feat bulette rampage. This allows you to deal extra damage after a successful over run. This damage is your 1d8+ 1/2 your armor bonus+ X1.5 str.
If you chain all of this together then it's a two handed shield bash followed by a free bull rush followed by a free over run followed by another attack. And assuming you have the improved feats with a heavy shield with the spikes, bashing special ability, and the impact special ability (for a shield that deals 3d6 damage) then that is equal to 3d6+1d8+x7 str. And this is one attack so you can combine this with a full attack.
Look at what happens when you combine the siege breaker with the Smashing Style feat. I use an Adamantine Piston Maul.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
heavy shield with the spikes, bashing special ability, and the impact special ability (for a shield that deals 3d6 damage)
Impact, Bashing, and Shield Spikes are all 'effective' size increases and thus do not stack.
Some options you might want to add to a build like this;
Feats
Greater Bull Rush - Allies get AoO when you move enemy
Paired Opportunists - You get AoO when ally with same feat does
Spiked Destroyer - Swift action armor spikes attack on bull rush
Raging Throw feat - damage targets thrown by bull rush while raging (requires dip into rage class)
Shield Master - Retain shield AC while attacking and use shield enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus
Traits
Snowstride - Bull rush targets two sizes larger
Shield-trained - Makes heavy shield a light simple weapon for you
Shield bearer - +1 damage on shield bashes & once per day AC bonus to ally