its true, but I have no authority. Best case is someone will post the relevant text with the words bolded.
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Yeah I've got a player that has a Master of Many Styles Monk and he believes that when he gets his bonus style feat that as long as he gets the first in the Chain that he can skip the second and just get the third, pretty much breaking the style feats. I've also seen a lot of forums that agree with this but I really see it as untrue. I also see that none of these people have any actual authority on this being true or not true.
Pretty Much I'm looking for verification on its validity from someone who actually has said authority.
He can do this, but only by using his monk bonus feats. He cannot use his normal feats granted at odd levels to take feats he does not meet the pre-reqs for. Also note, many of the 3rd feats key off of the second feat and don't work without it. Crane Riposte doesn't work without Crane Wing, Panther Parry is way less useful without Panther Claw, etc.
Unfortunately you'll have to evaluate how these interact on a case by case basis.
What other authority do you need other than it says it right in the description?
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
This ability replaces a monk’s standard bonus feats.
You need not meet ANY of the prerequisites for the Style Feats on your Bonus Feats except for having the original Style Feat for the second or third Feat. In exchange, you lose Flurry of Blows (basically halving your total number of attacks) and MUST pick Style Feats as Bonus Feats.
Over 20 levels he gets 5 "freebies".
There's nothing broken about it at all.
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Because they did not put the third feat in the path in the description. They put the second. Which means too me that you need to get the second then the third. AKA get the appropriate Style Feat before you get the next one. Every other prerequisite is removed, except for that one. I believe this to be the case, and I'm looking for someone who is actually part of the Society Hierarchy or someone who was part of creating the game to either say I'm wrong or say I'm right. I don't want random people just saying yeah that's how it works.
Only the feats that actually are listed as [Style] feats are style feats. For example, Boar Style has the descriptor(Combat, Style) next to it. Boar Shred just has (Combat).
So Boar Style, Crane Style, Djinni Style, etc.The rest are not actually Style feats, just feats in the feat path. So the part where it says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" means that as long as he has the Style feat, any of the feats in its path are eligible to take as bonus feats, regardless of whether you had the preceding feat.
Seems pretty cut & dry to me based on the bolded text above (with the caveats pointed out by Ssalarn of course). Monks already have it hard enough, no reason to make it worse ;)
Of course you're always free to do whatever you want if you're the GM.
Edit: ninja
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Yeah I've got a player that has a Master of Many Styles Monk and he believes that when he gets his bonus style feat that as long as he gets the first in the Chain that he can skip the second and just get the third, pretty much breaking the style feats. I've also seen a lot of forums that agree with this but I really see it as untrue.
In your game, YOU are the authority. Always remember this. What you do not like, you can house-rule.
By RAW, it's true. Personally I don't see this as broken, because if you take Crane Riposte it's useless without Crane Wing, for example. Sure, you can get the third feat in a chain with your second level bonus feat, BUT you can't do much Style-wise then until your 6th level bonus feat.
By RAI, I think you need the second feat in the chain anyway, myself. Without it the third feat doesn't always work, though there are exceptions. However, if you rule this in your game, it keeps the 3rd feat out of his clammy unarmed hands until 6ht level, but it nerfs the number of styles he can comfortably gain.
However the MoMS is 'meh' with regards to being powerful - it's not. You lose Flurry of Blows, so all your attacks are now at 3/4 BAB. It also has all the drawbacks of the core monk in addition.
Frankly, you could have given all the MoMS's abilities to blend styles and take style feats to the core monk and it STILL wouldn't have been close to broken.
Because they did not put the third feat in the path in the description. They put the second. Which means too me that you need to get the second then the third. AKA get the appropriate Style Feat before you get the next one. Every other prerequisite is removed, except for that one.
Except that is literally not what it says. The only mention of you needing a prerequisite is for you to either meet the prerequisites for Elemental Fist, or you need to have Elemental fist to qualify for some Styles (it's ambiguous). Other than that, it is clearly spelled out. "He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat". Period.
If you want to houserule it, fine, but that's not what the Rules Questions forum is for.
I believe this to be the case, and I'm looking for someone who is actually part of the Society Hierarchy or someone who was part of creating the game to either say I'm wrong or say I'm right. I don't want random people just saying yeah that's how it works.
Like it or not, the rulebook exists for a reason. The higher-ups don't have the time or the inclination to come down and answer every question that is clearly spelled out in the rules.
Only the feats that actually are listed as [Style] feats are style feats. For example, Boar Style has the descriptor(Combat, Style) next to it. Boar Shred just has (Combat).
So Boar Style, Crane Style, Djinni Style, etc.
The rest are not actually Style feats, just feats in the feat path. So the part where it says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" means that as long as he has the Style feat, any of the feats in its path are eligible to take as bonus feats, regardless of whether you had the preceding feat.
All of them are Style Feats. Hence why they are ALL listed under "Style Feats" as well as "Combat".
I feel like this is a typo because why are they all under Style Feats in Ultimate Combat than? Like I said I know all the arguments for it and it still seems just wrong to me.
You mean the argument that all of the Style Feats don't work at all unless you're using the Style, unlike other Feats which are always active or independently activated?
By the way the monk in question has a 29 AC 8 attacks of opportunity and is able to use one of his attacks of opportunity whenever someone misses him.
Once per round, since it's an immediate action (I assume you're talking about Snake Fang) and it eats his Swift action for the next turn.
So how does he have 29 AC at level 5? Because the only Style Feats that raise AC are Snapping Turtle (a +1 Deflection bonus) and Crane (which requires you to fight defensively).
If I don't get an answer from any higher-ups than I won't get an answer, but if i don't put this out there I will never get an answer. That's what this is for. To see if I can get an answer.
Yes, but waving off everyone else' proof because you will not take an answer from anyone but a Paizo staff member is just an exercise in frustration. Yours AND mine.
I feel like this is a typo because why are they all under Style Feats in Ultimate Combat than? Like I said I know all the arguments for it and it still seems just wrong to me. By the way the monk in question has a 29 AC 8 attacks of opportunity and is able to use one of his attacks of opportunity whenever someone misses him. If I don't get an answer from any higher-ups than I won't get an answer, but if i don't put this out there I will never get an answer. That's what this is for. To see if I can get an answer.
Oh he's also only 5th level.
Post his sheet, he may or you may have made a calculation mistake.
Even a Crane Wing style is not 29, they are AC 25, 29 when fighting defensively.
8 AoO, do you mean he has Combat Reflex with 24 Dexterity?
AC is 10 + Wis + 1 Monk + Dex +?
level 5 AC 29? Doesn't sound too hard.
First off realize he has little reason to really push his wisdom so if he doesn't he could easily be in a chain shirt have say a 18 dex putting him up to 18 already, dodge means 19 belt of dex +2 for 20 crane style gives him +4 acrobatics increases this to +5 and if he's a halfling he could have cautious fighter for +2 and then of course his size bonus for another +1 means we are up to 28, ring of protection +1 means a 29.
All told he's spent 6k~ish on items for defense. IF he did go with high wisdom you'll notice the armor isn't magic so he probably could have a 18 wisdom keeping the bonuses the same. There is still plenty of fudge room in that too for other item combinations or what not (natural armor bracers of armor with wisdom instead of the chain shirt, et al).
An AC of 29 at level 5 isn't too crazy. But I am interested in his sheet, as it's unlikely he's getting great damage to go with all that defense.
wand mage armor 4
wand shield 4
dex 24 7 while raging
wis 18 4
dodge 1 or other misc
29think that's what he does anyway
Raging? That sound like a Barbarian, if multiclass OP should mention.
Shield is personal so Monk is using wand or scrolls and high UMD.Even than Shield lasts 1 minute, so 1/battle he waste a round.
Even mage armor only lasts an hour.
Only the feats that actually are listed as [Style] feats are style feats. For example, Boar Style has the descriptor(Combat, Style) next to it. Boar Shred just has (Combat).
So Boar Style, Crane Style, Djinni Style, etc.
The rest are not actually Style feats, just feats in the feat path. So the part where it says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" means that as long as he has the Style feat, any of the feats in its path are eligible to take as bonus feats, regardless of whether you had the preceding feat.
please note:
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.This ability replaces a monk’s standard bonus feats.
It doesn't have to be a style feat itself if it is in the style feat's path (and gives an example of earth child topple off of earth child style).
Just in case they aren't actual 'style feats' themselves it's already covered.
Yeah, this is pretty straightforward.
...a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
So, if he has the appropriate style feat (Earth Child Style, for example), he may choose a feat in that style's feat path (such as Earth Child Topple). He doesn't need to meet any of the other prerequisites as long as he has the style itself.
So, he can indeed skip the second feat in the path to move straight to the third (specifically using the bonus feats, that is). It's written pretty explicitly.
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Only the feats that actually are listed as [Style] feats are style feats. For example, Boar Style has the descriptor(Combat, Style) next to it. Boar Shred just has (Combat).
So Boar Style, Crane Style, Djinni Style, etc.
The rest are not actually Style feats, just feats in the feat path. So the part where it says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" means that as long as he has the Style feat, any of the feats in its path are eligible to take as bonus feats, regardless of whether you had the preceding feat.please note:
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.This ability replaces a monk’s standard bonus feats.
It doesn't have to be a style feat itself if it is in the style feat's path (and gives an example of earth child topple off of earth child style).
Just in case they aren't actual 'style feats' themselves it's already covered.
I feel like people are misunderstanding me. If they were style feats, than it would work like Rayan wants it to, where you would have to have the preceding feat in the chain. Since they aren't style feats, the text that says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" applies, and he can skip to the end of the chain.
Actually their word isn't really 'law' as they have no means of enforcing their word by itself.
You could more accurately say their written books and errata are 'law' -- however this is one particular topic that has been over multiple times since the book actually came out with no big changes to date.
As such I would suggest you aren't going to get what you really want here (that and if you read the forums you'll see they really hate being asked to come out on the forums and be all 'official' on these sorts of issues, unless it's something they think is huge).
If you concede that they are all Style feats as well as combat feats then the wording of the bonus feat's ability makes it so you have to go through the chain in the order they are meant to go through. Because you must have the appropriate Style feat to go on to the next Style feat.
No. Because they are not all style feats. You pointed it out yourself, and a few others have, only the first feat is the actual style. Edit: Nevermind, you didn't point that out. You were trying to quote Ssalarn on that. Still, that is the right of it.
The following feats are part of the style path. Which is specifically mentioned as being available as long as the Monk has the Style feat that needs to be activated to use the following feats in the path.
Snake Fang Works like so.
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent.
So the immediate action is only for an extra attack after you hit them.
My bad, my MoMS has been out of commssion for a couple of months now.
You still haven't explained A.) Why this is a problem or B.) How this Monk got the stats and/or items necessary to pull of that AC and amount of AoOs, unless he's being buffed (which is hardly a problem with the monk, now is it?)
If you concede that they are all Style feats as well as combat feats then the wording of the bonus feat's ability makes it so you have to go through the chain in the order they are meant to go through. Because you must have the appropriate Style feat to go on to the next Style feat.
Wut?
It says you can pick another Feat in the Feat path. Just because they're all Style Feats does not mean all of them have to be taken in order. You only need the original "X Style" Feat before you can take the rest of the Style Feats in the Feat path. Just READ it.
I'm not sure of the exact math behind the 29 AC but I'm fairly sure it's accurate. Let me put it this way. He has always played up.
If you're not sure of the math, then you shouldn't be making judgement calls about it. Take his character sheet and look it over.
And I'm not waiving off anyone's proof I'm just interpreting it differently than you. I would like to hear from the higher-ups not because I don't value your opinion but because their word, technically, is law. So it won't matter if I interpret it differently or not.
but there IS no interpretation. It says it right there in plain text, with absolutely no ambiguity!
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Only the feats that actually are listed as [Style] feats are style feats. For example, Boar Style has the descriptor(Combat, Style) next to it. Boar Shred just has (Combat).
So Boar Style, Crane Style, Djinni Style, etc.
The rest are not actually Style feats, just feats in the feat path. So the part where it says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" means that as long as he has the Style feat, any of the feats in its path are eligible to take as bonus feats, regardless of whether you had the preceding feat.All of them are Style Feats. Hence why they are ALL listed under "Style Feats" as well as "Combat".
You are wrong here Rynjin, and creating an argument that works counter to the ends you are trying to express. Of the feats Boar Style, Boar Ferocity, and Boar Shred, only Boar Style is actually a Style feat. The others are just feats in its chain. That's why "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style)" applies, and why you can skip from the Style feat to the third feat in the chain without having to take the second one.
Maybe so. They're all listed under Style Feats in any case, but none of that changes the fact that they're still part of the Feat chain beginning with the "relevant Style Feat" (the one that says Style on it), and it says you can ignore the prerequisites for that Feat chain, so the point is moot.
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And I'm not waiving off anyone's proof I'm just interpreting it differently than you. I would like to hear from the higher-ups not because I don't value your opinion but because their word, technically, is law. So it won't matter if I interpret it differently or not.but there IS no interpretation. It says it right there in plain text, with absolutely no ambiguity!
And the developers are unlikely to jump into a thread to provide clarification when only one person is having trouble understanding it. They tend to reserve that for threads where dozens, if not hundreds, of posters are confused.
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but the least effective way to get what you want is to come in and say nothing else matters unless a Paizo staff member says so. Paizo staff is unlikely to comment on an issue that is well understood by the majority of the player base, just because one person doesn't like it.|
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Maybe so. They're all listed under Style Feats in any case, but none of that changes the fact that they're still part of the Feat chain beginning with the "relevant Style Feat" (the one that says Style on it), and it says you can ignore the prerequisites for that Feat chain, so the point is moot.
Under your interpretation, if they are all Style feats, than the preceding feat could easily be the "relevant Style Feat", and then Rayan has a strong argument for his interpretation. It is the very fact that only the first feat in a chain is actually a style feat that makes the wording so clear and iron clad. If only one feat in the chain is a style feat, than only that feat qualifies as "the relevant style feat", and you can jump to the end of the chain if you want.
I think that this is a straight forward interpretation. If you go master of many styles you get to go out of order allowing that you take the style feat.
However, if the OP is really begging for an answer from a "Higher-up" you could try the "Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here!<<" Thread.
But honestly I think a better question for that thread would be: Who is your favorite spaceship captain?
I know the character has weapon finesse, an amulet of mighty fists (agile), and levels in unarmed fighter, urban barbarian, and moms monk
This is curious. Urban Barbarian is still restricted by the Nonlawful alignment or they can't rage. Unless he only just added Barbarian levels to the list and doesn't plan on taking any more monk levels, he needs to be pulling some very tricky alignment shenanigans to make that possible.
Edit: Much as I personally feel Urban Barbarian shouldn't need the nonlawful alignment anyway, it is still there.
I know the character has weapon finesse, an amulet of mighty fists (agile), and levels in unarmed fighter, urban barbarian, and moms monk
A side step to the alignment problem is if it's a martial artist MOMS monk -- which would satisfy all the above.
With that combination however I fully believe he's probably laying on the hurt... I would guess monk 2 barbarian 1 fighter 2 with an eye to getting that brawler ability that is +1 to hit +3 to damage.
Yeah he's going to be a beast.
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This is the first time I've actually posted on anything so I didn't actually know that there was very little chance of getting a definitive answer from an official so I apologize for that.
Secondly I'm glad that people at least somewhat understand what I'm saying about my interpretation. You disagree with me, but you still understand where I'm coming from. I'm not trying to nerf the Monk. I love Monks! They're one of my favorite classes. I'm just saying this is how I see it, a lot of people see it differently. If all of the feats are in fact not Style feats then I suppose you have valid points and I concede my argument. But I still believe they are all in fact Style feats and the fact that the others are not labeled as such is simply a typo. But I will bow to your guy's wisdom.
Just as a note that hopefully makes you feel better:It is really not a typo. If you go here and read the description under Style feats, they make a very clear distinction between feats in a chain and style feats. It was an intentional design choice.
" As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.
The styles presented follow, along with specific feat paths—feats that complement each style."
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A side step to the alignment problem is if it's a martial artist MOMS monk -- which would satisfy all the above.With that combination however I fully believe he's probably laying on the hurt... I would guess monk 2 barbarian 1 fighter 2 with an eye to getting that brawler ability that is +1 to hit +3 to damage.
Yeah he's going to be a beast.
You cannot have a Martial Artist/MoMS monk. The two archetypes are incompatible as they both replace Perfect Self.
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Atonement gives you back powers lost because of alignment violations. If you immediately go back to a prohibited alignment, you still lose the abilities. As long as you are advancing as a monk, you cannot use your Rage ability. This is not a legal character, particularly for PFS. (At least not if you are gaining monk levels and Raging).
Your feats seem a little off too...
You had to have Archon Style to take Archon Diversion, but it looks like you're saying you took Archon Diversion first?
Lots of build info
AC= 29
I like this build.
I'm a big fan of high AC builds because it's just silly fun to avoid all damage. As a matter of fact I have a very similar build for a Dragon disciple. The two issues with the build is that your damage output almost non-existent and I don't think that atonement works that way.
In many ways you're like the flash, you can't get hit but really you're not something that any supervillan has to worry about. I mean what are you going to do? Not get hit.
I guess I don't really understand why your Dm is claiming you are broken. 1d6+3 damage 7 rounds a day while raging is hardly game shattering damage at level 5.
Archon Style - (Purchased with Fighter level 1 Bonus Feat @ lvl5)
Archon Diversion - (Purchased with MoMS Bonus Feat)This part here doesnt make sense
You dont qualify for Archon Diversion at 4 (when you get the MoMS bonus feat), meaning you have to take Archon Style at 4 (using the MoMS bonus feat), And then take Diversion at 5 using the fighter feat (as you meet the prereqs)
Does if he goes:
level -- class1 -- Urban barbarian
2 -- Urban barbarian
3 -- MoMS monk
4 -- Unarmed Fighter (note I confused this and the brawler earlier)
5 -- MoMS monk
Don't think he actually needs combat expertise this way.
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Archon Style - (Purchased with Fighter level 1 Bonus Feat @ lvl5)
Archon Diversion - (Purchased with MoMS Bonus Feat)This part here doesnt make sense
You dont qualify for Archon Diversion at 4 (when you get the MoMS bonus feat), meaning you have to take Archon Style at 4 (using the MoMS bonus feat), And then take Diversion at 5 using the fighter feat (as you meet the prereqs)
Does if he goes:
level -- class
1 -- Urban barbarian
2 -- Urban barbarian
3 -- MoMS monk
4 -- Unarmed Fighter (note I confused this and the brawler earlier)
5 -- MoMS monkHowever combat expertise is a waste on this build, I would have grabbed piranha strike or something else I think.
He has to have Combat Expertise for Archon Diversion. His build says he has levels of Brawler, and Brawler does not get a bonus feat that ignores pre-reqs.
He has to have Combat Expertise for Archon Diversion.Archon Style - (Purchased with Fighter level 1 Bonus Feat @ lvl5)
Archon Diversion - (Purchased with MoMS Bonus Feat)This part here doesnt make sense
You dont qualify for Archon Diversion at 4 (when you get the MoMS bonus feat), meaning you have to take Archon Style at 4 (using the MoMS bonus feat), And then take Diversion at 5 using the fighter feat (as you meet the prereqs)
Does if he goes:
level -- class
1 -- Urban barbarian
2 -- Urban barbarian
3 -- MoMS monk
4 -- Unarmed Fighter (note I confused this and the brawler earlier)
5 -- MoMS monkHowever combat expertise is a waste on this build, I would have grabbed piranha strike or something else I think.
Look:
1st barbarian level: level 1: feats as stated2nd barbarian level: level 2: nothing gained
1st monk level: level 3: Snake Style (normal 3rd level feat) Snake fang (with 1st level monk bonus feat ignoring prerequisites)
Fighter level: level 4: Archon style (with fighter bonus feat ignore prerequsites)
2nd monk level: level 5: Archon Diversion (with 2nd level monk bonus feat ignoring prerequisites)
He doesn't need combat expertise, as he used a monk bonus feat (specifically his second level bonus feat) to ignore the prerequisites since he already had the style feat from his previous fighter level.
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I like this build.I'm a big fan of high AC builds because it's just silly fun to avoid all damage. As a matter of fact I have a very similar build for a Dragon disciple. The two issues with the build is that your damage output almost non-existent and I don't think that atonement works that way.
In many ways you're like the flash, you can't get hit but really you're not something that any supervillan has to worry about. I mean what are you going to do? Not get hit.
I guess I don't really understand why your Dm is claiming you are broken. 1d6+3 damage 7 rounds a day while raging is hardly game shattering damage at level 5.
I believe it was mentioned earlier that he has an Agile AoMF, which would give him his DEX to damage on every attack. So it's more like 1d6+7 while Raging. Which he can't do if he's gaining monk levels. Atonement helps you correct alignment violations, like a paladin who willing commits an evil act. If the Paladin changed his Alignment to CE and then stayed CE after recieving atonement, he'd lose his abilities all over again. Similarly, a monk/barbarian who receives an atonement and then goes on being lawful cannot Rage.
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Look:
1st barbarian level: level 1: feats as stated
2nd barbarian level: level 2: nothing gained
1st monk level: level 3: Snake Style (normal 3rd level feat) Snake fang (with 1st level monk bonus feat ignoring prerequisites)
Fighter level: level 4: Archon style (with fighter bonus feat ignore prerequsites)
2nd monk level: level 5: Archon Diversion (with 2nd level monk bonus feat ignoring prerequisites)He doesn't need combat expertise, as he used a monk bonus feat (specifically his second level bonus feat) to ignore the prerequisites since he already had the style feat from his previous fighter level.
You look. He has a Brawler level. He doesn't get to ignore pre-reqs with his Fighter Bonus feats, so he has to have Combat Expertise. You were confused because you thought he had a level of Unarmed Fighter, but he clearly said he has Brawler in the post.
As it stands, this build is not legal on a couple fronts.
1)He appears to have taken Archon Diversion before Archon Style, which he cannot do.
2)Is Raging while lawful, which he cannot do
That being said, I think you can flip the two Archon feats and the build will be all right, other than the fact that a Barbarian cannot Rage if his alignment is lawful.
AH so he does -- I was thinking of the Unarmed fighter archetype which would have then made it all legit.
However we can still make it work:
below level 3 (as before)
level 4 -- fighter -- grab combat expertise instead.
level 5 -- monk -- grab archon style as fifth level feat, (you are +4 BAB with combat expertise so all good) and archon diversion as your bonus monk feat.
Just a slightly different order than I thought due to my confusing the archetypes.
I'm leaving the alignment thing completely alone -- atonement and all that is too fuzzy for me to get into without knowing what is going on at the table.
I believe it was mentioned earlier that he has an Agile AoMF, which would give him his DEX to damage on every attack. So it's more like 1d6+7 while Raging. Which he can't do if he's gaining monk levels.
You are absolutely right.
So I think I found why the DM thinks he is broken. He has more than 20,000 gp worth of items. Twice the suggested wealth by level. I personally don't follow Wealth by level in my game but if you are going to ignore it. You can't be surprised if your players are complete bad@$$@$ by level 5.
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I dont see 20k worth of items
4k (Agile amulet of mighty fists not AoMF doesnt need to be +1 to get agile)
4k (belt)
2k (ioun stone)Total 10k
All 4 wands would have been obtained for free using Prestige.
Assuming he didnt play up at all by level 5 he should have 10.2k gold (using the 500 gp for 1-2 scenarios and 1200 for 3-4 scenarios average for PFS).
His build is technically legal if he atoned after his 2nd monk level and doesnt plan to go back (which he wont as MoMS+sacred mountain is a 2 level dip). He can qualify for all his feats in using his levels in the order he took them, (he has 4 BAB and all the prereq feats at 5 to take archon diversion as a fighter feat, he just needed to take the style feat as his MoMS bonus the level before)
He said he took Archon Diversion at 4. Also, you need to account for the gold cost of a 5th level spell in there, although I suppose you can get that for as little as 500 gold.
Still, despite some alignment shenanigans and the feats not being properly allocated, you're right, it's a basically legal build.
I dont see 20k worth of items
4k (Agile amulet of mighty fists not AoMF doesnt need to be +1 to get agile)
4k (belt)
2k (ioun stone)Total 10k
All 4 wands would have been obtained for free using Prestige.
Assuming he didnt play up at all by level 5 he should have 10.2k gold (using the 500 gp for 1-2 scenarios and 1200 for 3-4 scenarios average for PFS).
His build is technically legal if he atoned after his 2nd monk level and doesnt plan to go back (which he wont as MoMS+sacred mountain is a 2 level dip). He can qualify for all his feats in using his levels in the order he took them, (he has 4 BAB and all the prereq feats at 5 to take archon diversion as a fighter feat, he just needed to take the style feat as his MoMS bonus the level before)
Shouldn't buying atonement come out of his WBL?
Do you free atonement from prestige?