Stealth vs Perception_just sneakin around?

[Zandra]

There has been a slew of questions about how perception works in combination with stealth in combat, however; I have a question on those times that stealth is being used to avoid combat:

When a rogue is sneaking into a inhabited circus tent for instance.

What kind of checks would be necessary if the thief was invisible but having to move the tent canvas to peer inside.

Would the clown sitting within, going about their own business, get an unopposed perception check to see the tent movement vs the invisible rogue peering beneath it?

Two separate stealth rolls? Two separate perception checks?
One to perceive the tent movement and another perceive the invisible rogue?

What would you do based upon what is written in the Pathfinder book about stealth and perception rolls?

[VRMH]

Zandra wrote:

Would the clown sitting within, going about their own business, get an unopposed perception check to see the tent movement vs the invisible rogue peering beneath it?

Yes.

Quote:

Two separate stealth rolls? Two separate perception checks?

GM call.

Quote:

What would you do based upon what is written in the Pathfinder book about stealth and perception rolls?

Apply common sense and situational modifiers. Some work was done to "fix" stealth, but it seems to have been put on the back-burner.

[Chemlak]

As I understand it, Stealth accounts for any temporary alterations to the environment that the character makes. So, in this case, the clown might easily notice the tent flap moving, but since he doesn't see the invisible rogue, he dismisses it (probably as "just a breeze"). Since Perception is tied to Wisdom, it also includes realising how the environment behaves "normally", and therefore includes the character's likely level of suspicion that something isn't quite right.

Now, if the character who is being stealthy makes a "permanent" alteration to the environment (such as the "flour sprinkled on black tiles" trick), that would be a separate Perception check.

[Zandra]

I appreciate the post the simply said "GM call" however, as player's that doesn't empower us to use our abilities in entirely predictable ways. The subjectivity of the "GM Call" is difficult for players to accept without question and I would just ask for consistency of the rule.

In order to be fair to GM and Players, I'd have to view this in a npc perspective. "What would we want the GM to do if an assassin or rogue was spying on our party?" Ultimately, it is how my GM and I have agreed to handle it.

I would want to be able to perceive the tent movement and wouldn't want the invisibility of the perp. to play into that roll. Whether or not I see the index finger of the invisible thief lifting the flap of canvas to see beneath it-- would be much more difficult to detect and perhaps involve a bluff check to pretend it was 'just the breeze'.

What have GM's done to allow their invisible rogues their stealth out of combat situations? What are some of the limits they set on these actions, since many items allow for invisibility until the pc attacks?