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I know people say that fighters get more feats than any other class and that makes them more versatile and that the fighter don’t need more fighter only feats since any feet that can be taken by a fighter is a fighter feat. Even JB (Jason Bulmahn) seem to think this. When asked “Why there are so few fighter only feats in the game (particularl high level ones)?” JB had this to say:
Well, ever feat we put out is another option for the fighter. Since they get about twice as many as other classes, they have a much greater opportunity to utilize this new content.
Well is this really true? So fighter bonus feats are called fighter bonus feats, but rage powers are called rage powers and not feats and therefore barbarians get fewer feats than fighters? It’s the same thing with the rogues. They are called rogue talents and not rogue bonus feats.
This is just wordplay.
If we had called the rogue talents bonus rogue feats then fighter would not have about twice as many feats. They would have had one more feats.
It would not be a big problem turning rogue talanets into rogue bonus feats. Rogues bonus feats must be taken from the rogue feat list (or weapon finesse, weapon focus and a combat feat). At level 10 she may pic any feat she qualifies for. And just as greater weapon specialization comes with a prereq, the advanced rogue talents could come with a prereg we you pick them as feats. The prereq would be rogue level 10.
Same thing with the barbarian: We can call rage powers Barbarian bonus feats. Feats that are exclusive to barbarians only. It doesn’t come as a surprise that a popular feat for barbarians is extra Rage Powers. Probably the same reason many alchemist's feats are going to Extra Discovery.
Quantity does not equal quality, nor is it exclusive.
Anyway. I will post more tomorrow and I will sort of flip floppy and comment on some of the more ridicules complaints of fighter and why some of the suggested fixes are just as ridicules or at least troublesome.
Feats on average weight less than class features. The bonus feats would be awesome if they were actually as good as rage powers, but they aren't. Lots of options, but just so many of them are poor and they don't scale and they often require chains and they have all sorts of other problems with them.
Feats on average weight less than class features. The bonus feats would be awesome if they were actually as good as rage powers, but they aren't. Lots of options, but just so many of them are poor and they don't scale and they often require chains and they have all sorts of other problems with them.
This.
I once replied to a friend of mine tgat while a feat can give you +3 to jump, a class feature gives you fly (a synthesist evolution or a witch hex, for example). Fly >>>>> skill focus jump.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fun fact: The Flight hex also gives a +4 to swim, levitate 1/day, and feather fall at will. Its a very nice hex! Does a lot more than +3 to jump. 5 minutes of fly could be all you need in an adventure too, can make jumping kinda' moot.
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May I guess Extra Hex is a popular feat?
And guess what. The witch gets a hex at level one and then one every even level. What if we call them witch bonus feats and compare them to fighter feats or any feat that a fighter may take as a bonus feat.
There is a good reason there is no extra fighter bonus feat.
Zark is brilliant as always and right on the money.
Thanks (blushes).
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To be kinda fair, not very many Rage Powers are better than Feats.
Just enough to tide you over through all 20 levels and have a couple-three leftover you might have wanted.
Another standard comparison is a gighter taking Iron Will in the same level a paladin gets Divine Grace. Or fighter's Bravery vs Paladin's Aura of courage. Fighter's features, and feats, are always very small increments. It's a +1 here or a +2 there. Class features give you new things to do, cool stuff, and things nobody else can do. Hexes,arcana, evolutions, even the paladin auras and mercies are in a whole other level than weapon specialization. Once again, compare the pity +1 to fear saves vs an aura that mskes you inmune to fear an givez +4 to your friends. Why on hell couldn't the fighter be inmune to fear as well? Right now a dragon cones, and the only one who fears him is the grizzly veteran. Couse he's the guy with low Will saves
To be kinda fair, not very many Rage Powers are better than Feats.
Just enough to tide you over through all 20 levels and have a couple-three leftover you might have wanted.
LOL.
I wonder if it would be fair to say that the Barbarian suck since she doesn't get bonus feats at every even level. I also wonder if all barbarian lovers would be happy or stark raving mad if the design team took pity one the barbarian and removed all rage powers and instead gave it bonus feats every even level.
I think i said it slready in this thread. The problem with fighter is his name. If it were called "hero" or "chuck nirris wannabe" nobody would complain if bravery gives fear inmunity. But as it is a fighter, which is a mundane thing (even the mikitia or the city watch are fighters, because they fight), then he can only have mundane, poor things like +1 to fear saves. That's why Gunslingers got "grit" and samurai got "resolve". They have shiny names, so they can have cool toys
Of course, the Witch also gets a bunch of spells on top of that. If we called them feats too, it's pretty clear what is better between spells or feats. It's also clear, whether using spells or hexes, which gives more powerful options at high levels.May I guess Extra Hex is a popular feat?
And guess what. The witch gets a hex at level one and then one every even level. What if we call them witch bonus feats and compare them to fighter feats or any feat that a fighter may take as a bonus feat.There is a good reason there is no extra fighter bonus feat.
I never said or implied that fighters should be as powerful as full casters. My point is simply that saying that fighters get bonus feat – or whatever you call them – at every even level makes the powerful and versatile since no one gets them is simply sky high rhetoric. Other classes don’t get bonus feats but they get stuff that that is just as good and usually better and get more stuff on top of it.
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Bonus feats work well for Rangers, but not Fighters...
Why? I'm glad you asked!
You see, feats have this annoying tendency of being rather weak and having annoying prerequisites that are even worse. Most of the few feats that are actually useful and/or fun (other than the "I don't want a feat, can I have another one of my class features?" feats, such as Extra Hex, Extra Arcana, Extra Rage Power, etc...) also require that you be 3~6 levels above what would be reasonable ("Look at that legendary Rogue! He can use TWO poisons at the same time! You surely need to have the CR of a T-Rex to be able to do that!")
So Fighters get screwed... Because their main class features are locked behind 7 keys made of acid. Each one guarded by 50 Balors in a different part of the darkest abyss! And when Fighters finally get their feats... Their reward is usually not all that good... ("Cool! Now I qualify for... Mobility?")
Weapon Training and Armor Training are fun... But Fighters rely on their feats to excel... That hurts them badly.
Rangers, OTOH, get a lot of class features, many of which are just as important as their bonus feats. (if not even more important!). And better yet, they get to ignore prerequisites! Not only this means they don't need to worry about useless/boring feats such as "Dodge" or whatever, that also means they get some feats 3~6 levels earlier than any Fighter could.
When a feat that you're supposed to get at 11th level is available at 6th level, it doesn't seem so weak. More often than not, it'd make more sense if anyone could take it at 6th level, but since the devs have this weird idea that feat chains reward Fighters (when in fact it's the opposite, Fighters get screwed by feat chains harder than anyone else!), you gotta hide that feat with a really bizarre BAB or skill ranks prerequisite, so there's no way to get them ealier...
Feat chains suck. They are boring and restrictive. And they screw Fighters like there is no tomorrow.
"But Fighters have twice as many feats, so they don't have to worry about long feat chains!"
Yeah... No.
Feats are all Fighters have (and a few numerical bonuses here and there... But they don't give him any new ability... Well, except at 19th and 20th level... When the game is pretty much over anyway), so when you lock these feats behind a huge wall of worthless prerequisites... Fighter HAVE to pay the price.
Paladins can't get feat X? So what! They can sill rely on their awesome class feature! Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Divine Bond, spells, immunities... Yeah, they'll be fine.
Barbarians? No feat Y? Well, luckily, useful Rage Powers rarely have any prerequisite other than, you guessed it, useful Rage Powers! Also... DR, Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge and 2 more skill points!
Rangers? No feat Z? Look again, there it's! And they get to ignore those pesky prerequisites! Oh, but you want feat W, and it doesn't belong to any Combat Style... Well, I supposed you'll just have to rely on 6 skill ranks per level, animal companion, spells, Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain and a bunch of Stealth-related abilities.
An all of these classes have better saves than Fighters. All of them. And that's not even including Superstition.
Keep in mind, the problems with feats hurts everyone, not just the fighters. They also tend to be hyper focused on combat(understandably!) God forbid we talk about the fighter's out of combat use.
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Keep in mind, the problems with feats hurts everyone, not just the fighters. They also tend to be hyper focused on combat(understandably!) God forbid we talk about the fighter's out of combat use.
Indeed... I was just trying to point out that feat chains hurt Fighters more than anyone else, but many players think Fighters are not hurt by them because "they have so many feats".
Keep in mind, the problems with feats hurts everyone, not just the fighters. They also tend to be hyper focused on combat(understandably!) God forbid we talk about the fighter's out of combat use.
if a paladin can't get a feat chain, he'll smite. A fighter got... yeah, exactly
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The bonus feats would be awesome if they were actually as good as rage powers, but they aren't.
In a number of cases not even close. Particularly at higher levels since rage powers often scale and feats often do not.
One of my favorite feat vs rage power comparisons is Clear Mind (rage power) vs Improved Iron Will (feat).
Improved Iron Will is a feat, requiring another feat as a prerequisite. You get to use it once per day to reroll a Will save before the results are revealed (meaning you have to guess whether you needed to use the feat or not, and either waste your single daily use, or not use your ability when you needed it, if you guess wrong).
Clear Mind is a rage power. It has no prerequisites besides barbarian level. You get to use it to reroll a Will save 1/rage (likely meaning 1/encounter for lower level barbarians, or 1/round for high level barbarians). You get to find out whether you would have failed the save before you use it, so it is never wasted on a save you would have passed.
So you have a rage power that does the same thing as a feat except a) way more often, b) without requiring you to take a prerequisite, and c) with no risk of wasting it mistakenly or of not realizing that you needed it.
One of these things is not like the other!
Or for a (scaling) rage power vs a (non scaling) feat, Beast Totem vs Shield Focus. Both increase your AC, one does it by up to 6 points by 20th level, the other never grows beyond 1 point.
Keep in mind, the problems with feats hurts everyone, not just the fighters. They also tend to be hyper focused on combat(understandably!) God forbid we talk about the fighter's out of combat use.if a paladin can't get a feat chain, he'll smite. A fighter got... yeah, exactly
I don't really see what your getting at. Most feats aren't exclusive to fighters, less so the ones that give options. A paladin could grab the same feat chains most likely. The fighter however can grab several feat chains. The paladin can also use his smite with his feats most likely, since it doesn't turn off your feats or anything.
I don't really see what your getting at. Most feats aren't exclusive to fighters, less so the ones that give options. A paladin could grab the same feat chains most likely. The fighter however can grab several feat chains. The paladin can also use his smite with his feats most likely, since it doesn't turn off your feats or anything.Keep in mind, the problems with feats hurts everyone, not just the fighters. They also tend to be hyper focused on combat(understandably!) God forbid we talk about the fighter's out of combat use.if a paladin can't get a feat chain, he'll smite. A fighter got... yeah, exactly
my point is other classes can safely ignore the trap feat chains, becouse they have cool class features. If whirlwind is too well hidden into a feat chain, a magus coukd get Extra Arcana or a Summoner Extra Evolution or a Witch Extra Hex, and be happy. Fighters HAVE to pay for feat chains, because almost the only thing they have, is feats
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To be kinda fair, not very many Rage Powers are better than Feats.
Just enough to tide you over through all 20 levels and have a couple-three leftover you might have wanted.
This is My main problem with barbarians. I can build many fighter and the only common feat is power attack (and/or improved critical) and those build would be very diferent and far from subotpimal for the class.
A barbarian without Superstition + Beast totem is just doing it wrong, really wrong...
but the barbarian have other cool rage powers? yes, you could ignore those two rage power chains and you could build an interesting (even strong) character but he/she would be far inferior to the main barbarian build.
To be fair, even if you consider thosechains to be absolutely must-have Rage Powers, they are just 5 Rage Powers (Beast Totem chain + Superstition + Spell Sunder are the only imperative ones, the other are just gravy...) That's just half the amount of Rage Powers you get... Especially when you consider the feat Extra Rage Power. So even if pursue those two Rage Power chains, you still have a lot of them to use. And unlike feats, most Rage Powers scale with level [n]and[/n] do something cool and/or unique.
If Fighters had 5 feat that were incredibly awesome, scaled with level and allowed them to do cool stuff such as move and full attack or break magic, then they could use their other feats to do cool stuff, it wouldn't be so much of a problem...
Unfortunately, Fighters too often have to invest again and again in the same feat just to keep it relevant.
e.g.: TWF, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Improved [Combat Maneuver], etc...
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Well, my complain is not about power, it is about fun. takin the same 5 rage powers oven and over again is boring.
And yet, you can choose not to pick those Rage Powers. Your Barbarian will still be very viable (and still considerably better than a equivalent Fighters).
It's no different from nearly every caster having Improved Initiative or Combat Casting. Or every archer from pretty much every class having the exactly same feats. Or pretty much every Fighter having Power Attack and Weapon Focus/Specialization.
Now, the 2 main difference between Barbarians and Fighters, and these are huge, IMO, is that A- if you choose to pick those optimal options, Barbarians only need to pick them once, and they will grow and evolve with your Character. and B- Nearly every Rage Power gives you something new. Something you couldn't do before. You can get claws, scent, pounce or even wings... You can learn to break magic or see in the dark.
Fighters... not so much. Most feats are just numerical bonuses that do not scale. Even the all too common Weapon Focus. or Dodge. Or TWF. Or Precise Shot.
And while there are feats that give you new abilities, they are few and far between... For every Cornugon Smash or Lunge there are dozens of feats like Weapon Focus or Dodge. Feats that do absolutely nothing to expand your options. It's not uncommon to see 12th level Fighter builds that have the exact same abilities they had at 1st level, except now their numbers are higher. And many will claim that's an optimized build too!
IMHO, Fighters have 2 advantages over equivalent Barbarians...
1- Higher AC with less effort.
2- Switch-hitting. This a pretty big one, actually... Fighter do make great switch-hitters (I still think Rangers are better at this, but the difference is minimal)
IME, average DPR of both Fighters and Barbarians is not very different (assuming they're using their main combat style, as I said, Fighters make pretty good switch hitters).
Saves are about the same, but I'd give Barbarians a slight advantage because of the increasing morale bonus to will save and the fact that higher Con means higher Fort.
So where do Barbarians win?
Well, other than the Feats x Rage Powers giving them a big advantage, they also have more HP (a lot more while Raging), equal or faster movement, DR and twice as many skill points. They also get Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense as a little extra something...
I'll try and create 2 similar builds, a Barbarian and a Fighter, and see how it goes...
They also get Uncanny Dodge and trap sense as a little extra something...