Size Catagory increases?

[Bahamutkotd]

So, I can't find any wording anywhere, if size catagory increases on weapons stack? I'm just wondering, I have conflicting answers and i don't want to pull some on a dm and have to stop game to get their shot at it.

[Branding Opportunity]

Can you be a bit more specific? Size category increases from what sources?

[Bahamutkotd]

say on bashing and shield spikes,

edit: because spikes say change the damage type to piercing and treat the shield as being built for a creature one size catagory larger. and bashing says add 2 size catagories when bashing.

[Drakkiel]

please post the relevant quotes from spikes and bashing...I'm on my phone and where I'm at my connection blows so its gonna take forever for me to look them up and copy them :)

[Bahamutkotd]

page 153 CR "Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you"

page 462 CR "Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A Bashing shield Deals damage as if it where a weapon 2 size categories larger (medium light shield does 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability."

[Drakkiel]

nevermind...my phone seems to be loving internet usage today lol

I would say that they both seem to stack...in the case of both the shield spikes and the bashing enchant you get a light shield with 1d8 damage when it bashes, and a heavy shield would deal 2d6 damage. Thats for the cost of both the spikes and a +2 equivalent shield, so +4010gp.

[Bahamutkotd]

alright well that makes me feel better... just need enough fame to afford the +2

edit: so a +2 mithral spiked shield would cost 5030? so couldn't be upgraded until 18 fame. also in that same vein a Mithral full plate would cost 10500, then +1 1000 so to take it to +2 it would be 14500? thus 31 fame?

[Drakkiel]

I have never played with fame so I cannot answer that for ya...sorry buddy

[Bahamutkotd]

that, was more a PFS question... sorry ^^; just wondering.

[Drakkiel]

I'm trying to get into a PFS game at my local game store but my schedule is wonky right now :(

[Stome]

It has been ruled as not working. Because the bashing enchantment is a shield enchantment and the spikes are not the shield. The ruling seemed flimsy and kind of just made up to keep shield from being the best one handed weapon in the game (fair enough though.)

But anyway to put it better. Shield spikes are a add on to a shield and when you use them they are a weapon. As a weapon you can not put a shield enchantment on them so you can not put bashing on shield spikes.

If you use a plain shield to bash it is both a shield and a weapon at once so you can put bashing on it and it would effect its use as a shield.

[kyrt-ryder]

Hey Stome, is there a chance you could link to that ruling? I haven't seen such a ruling (and can't in good conscious support it) but I'm quite curious to see it.

EDIT: after all, a Spiked Shield isn't the highest base damage one-handed weapon, a Spiked Bashing Shield is, and for the price it should be. That's 4,000 gold on top of whatever weapon enhancements you're using (or worse, an extra +1 added to the price of magic on your shield if you intend to add more +x bonus cost enhancements to it.)

[Stome]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kls2?Shield-of-Bashing-with-Shield-spikes-stil l

A few post down on this thread.

And while I do think it was back peddling I disagree with you on the cost. Armor spikes + bashing is in fact very cheap. Impact is a weapon enchantment that ups damage dice by ONE step and is a +2 enchantment. So clearly this combo is in fact way out of line for the cost.

Though they really should have seen this ahead of time and put better wording all around rather then back peddling.

[kyrt-ryder]

And Impact is heavily over-priced. Even at a +1 I can only really see Greatsword/Greataxe or bigger weapons taking it, and even then it's far from a sure thing. (Better than the crappy +1d6 elements for certain, but I wouldn't be caught dead buying one of those anyway.)

Thanks for the link Stome.

EDIT: thankfully, it never actually made it into the FAQ as James intended, so although James gave his personal opinion on it, there's nothing official screwing shield bashers out of the 2d6 damage dice they've had since 3.5 (or possibly 3.0?)

[Drakkiel]

Impact is where I point people when they want a continuous ring of Gravity Bow or Lead Blades when they argue that they should be able to get it cheap based on the crafting formulas and not the part about comparing the item to something else that does similar things.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Impact also adds to Bull Rush. Regardless of whether you use the weapon for the Rush or not. So I could Shield Slam with my Heavy Shield and get the bonus to the Bull Rush part with my Impact Bastard Sword.

[kyrt-ryder]

Yeah, I *might* see impact working well with a Spiked Bashing Shield, assuming the GM allows them to work together, coupled with Shield Slam.

[Bahamutkotd]

the spikes and the shield are one in the same, a shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Show me the rule your quoting stome. As far as I can see, your logic is flawed, they are attached, would be like saying being hit by a truck is differant than being hit with a truck w/ a spiked grill on it.

[Stome]

I will agree that impact may be over priced. But remember it is multiplied on a crit and enhanced by vital strike and so on. So it is more valuable then +1D6 elemental damage. Worth twice as much? questionable. But that is the way they see it and I can understand why bashing should not be better in very way to impact. (still kind of is for builds that use it but with this ruling it is not the best one handed weapon.)

[kyrt-ryder]

Vital Strike is a trap. Anything that makes Vital Strike more appealing is a GOOD thing in my book. (Aside from wildshaping into a Tyrannosaurus. That's not.)

As far as those crappy elemental damage, they aren't worth the paper they're printed on in my opinion. Energy Resistance 5 to a given energy virtually wipes out the entire enhancement you just invested a ton of cash in. No thank you. I'd spend my gold on random stuff to support my character and just stick to a bland +1 weapon if my only option were to add an energy damage ability or leave it at +1.

Also, best one-hand weapon is relative Stome. Think of all the investments going into it. 4,000 gold just to make it Bashing. And then you need Improved Shield Bash to be able to keep the shield bonus. And even after all that it's still only a 20/x2 weapon.

[blackbloodtroll]

Your logic makes Armor Spikes, Armor, and Gauntlets all the same thing.

They are not.

For the purposes of enchanting, and Special Materials, a Shield, and Shield Spikes, are separate things.

[Stome]

Bahamutkotd wrote:

the spikes and the shield are one in the same, a shield can be enchanted as a weapon. Show me the rule your quoting stome. As far as I can see, your logic is flawed, they are attached, would be like saying being hit by a truck is differant than being hit with a truck w/ a spiked grill on it.

I am not quoting a rule I am a ruling. If you don;t like it fine but attacking me over it is childish and pointless.

Though if you want I can help you out with this. Spiked shield are in fact not listed in armor. They are listed as an add on. They have a full listing in weapons though. Meaning the spikes are indeed a weapon and can not have an armor enchantment.

More so if you look at the masterwork armor section it makes it clear that spikes (shield or armor) are NOT the same item as what they are attached on and must be masterworked/enchanted separately (much like double weapons.)

[Bahamutkotd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZ22UCnMNk 45g's in a real life situation with a blunt bronze shield.... tell me putting a giant ass spike on that wouldn't cause some damage

[Stome]

I could not care less about real life as it has no weight in a game system. In "real life" you can't add magic to a shield full stop... so?

Don't like it take it up with the Devs. Good luck with that though.

[kyrt-ryder]

James said they would add it to the FAQ, almost 3 years ago. It's still not there.

What I CAN quote, though, is the 3.5 FAQ, in which Bashing has the exact same wording.

3.5 FAQ wrote:

The description of the magical bashing property for

shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields.
Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can
you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?
You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you
do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal
by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield
spikes), and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon.
The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a
Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage
from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of
damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing
enhancement increases that to 1d8.)

[Stome]

3.5 FAQ has no weight and most certainly not in PFS. So I would never advise anyone making a PFS C to use it as it would be flat out bad advice.

[kyrt-ryder]

Oh, right, PFS.

Sorry bud, you're pretty much screwed. PFS tends to have its own rules that I make a point not to pay attention to.

Best of luck mate.

[Stome]

Hah yeah I can agree with your thoughts on PFS. None the less I wanted to give the info relevant to it.

[blackbloodtroll]

You can have a Mithral Shield with Adamantine Shield Spikes.

[Bahamutkotd]

Stome I was trying to make an point. The fact that it's been 3 years and they haven't added it to the FAQ kinda stands to reason that it's not a point.

Your statement that they are weapons just doesn't hold up. The footnoted version is that weapons start at 140 in the CR, and in the weapons section of the Book it lists both bashing and spiked bashing on 148, both directing to page 152, the ARMOR half of the item for rules on how to use it as weapon.

As for the book not listing the spikes, it does say that if the masterwork armor is used to make an attack i.e. That it does not infer the masterwork weapon bonus. And given that the properties are outlined for attacking with them in the armor section of the book, and the weapon section says nothing other than point you at the armor. A spiked shield is a shield first, and spiked second. How often do I actually swing it... atm not much i'd rather hit with my sword, only if the thing is weak to Silver. And I won't be able to twf untill 5, at which point i'll be more intrested in keeping my Ass out of the frier... So As fun as it'll be to knock things down w/ free bullrush with my shield... idk how often it'll actually work out

[Stome]

Firstly a Dav post from 3 years ago means a heck of a lot more in PFS then a 3.5 FAQ.

Secondly stop wasting your effort trying to argue it to me. I frankly don't care. At my table I would allow it as I feel that the logic of it not working was back peddling.

Still at the same time I understand the logic of the Dev post and it does have merit. Frankly more merit then your opinion as it is a Dev.

In the end though what would fly at my table does you no good. I can't tell you the exact PFS ruling as I don't know it but I do know they give a lot of value to dev opinions from what I have seen.

[Veldebrand]

I would like to chime in here.

If this is for PFS, don't try it. You'll eventually run into a GM saying, "no", and then you'll get frustrated. I took the shield spike off the shield on my Shield Bashing fighter because it caused some similar issues. Mine was having the agile enchantment as a weapon enchantment on the shield, and then using the spike.

Anytime you are relying on something that has someone from Paizo suggesting it doesn't work, even James Jacob (he's not official for rules but is very active in the forums and gives great advice), a GM can and will make his decision that it doesn't work.