I need to compare these two and pop a question for to help me answer because I simply can't leave this to GM discretion
Lore Mystery revalation
Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity
And Nature Mystery Revalation
Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.
Does Nature's Whisper Include The Same Maximum Dexterity Bonus as Sidestep Secret does? For it does not Say so But also Replaces Dexterity bonus to AC? In either Case I personally Don't Feel it makes sense for your Force of Personality (charisma) to be limited by Armor or Encumberence in any way but Rulings are rulings.
I would say since Nature's Whisper doesn't specifically state that here is a limit, that it doesn't limit the bonus
Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote: I would say since Nature's Whisper doesn't specifically state that here is a limit, that it doesn't limit the bonus That's what I think too but I didn't Know if A "maximum dexterity Bonus" Went Hand and Hand with "anything that causes you to lose your dexterity bonus"
Considering Paizo's editing habits, I'd say that the intent was for all the normal rules of dex to apply, just to cha instead. Meaning maximum dex bonus of your armor still applies. Could use a clarification, though.
Flavor-wise, the reason why it still applies is because you're not actually using your "force of personality" to deflect the attacks. (The attack doesn't miss just because you willed it to). The idea is that you're using cha because you're so in tune to your surroundings, that you can feel the right time to dodge an attack, as opposed to simply reacting to it. That feeling does not, however, allow you to ignore the restrictions of your armor. Your body doesn't become less restricted just because you have a sixth sense about incoming attacks.
That's my interpretation, at least.
Kazejin wrote: Considering Paizo's editing habits, I'd say that the intent was for all the normal rules of dex to apply, just to cha instead. Meaning maximum dex bonus of your armor still applies. Could use a clarification, though.
Flavor-wise, the reason why it still applies is because you're not actually using your "force of personality" to deflect the attacks. (The attack doesn't miss just because you willed it to). The idea is that you're using cha because you're so in tune to your surroundings, that you can feel the right time to dodge an attack, as opposed to simply reacting to it. That feeling does not, however, allow you to ignore the restrictions of your armor. Your body doesn't become less restricted just because you have a sixth sense about incoming attacks.
That's my interpretation, at least.
In response to the sixth sense comment I would have to comment the opposite might also be true from another perspective. Sure you may not be able to react as fast as having the dexterity but you are Extraordinarily aware of all movements your Opponent is making or is about to make. This makes me Believe you have more time to react and simply are not reacting faster. "more time to put that shield in the way versus putting that shield in the way faster"
Another difference could be:
Sidestep Secret (Su): Ac and Reflex with normal armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applying to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
Nature’s Whispers (Ex): only AC but without the maximum.
In the end it's for Paizo to Amend or clarify if they care at all this enables is a Spontaneous Divine Caster with Subpar (for Society) bonus spells To have An Option to be AC optimized. The First Option has him dodging fireballs in light armor (amongst other things)and the latter of the option would have up to 25+ AC at character creation which isn't completely unheard of and is just a gimmick till 3rd level spells become relevant anyway.. it's not Broken unless someone finds a brutal way to incorporate this into Rage Prophet
Tiago Oliveira wrote: Another difference could be:
Sidestep Secret (Su): Ac and Reflex with normal armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applying to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
Nature’s Whispers (Ex): only AC but without the maximum.
Keep in mind One applies to Reflex and the other Applies to CMD another Reason why the Original Question was Brought up
Princess Animal Parts wrote: Kazejin wrote: Considering Paizo's editing habits, I'd say that the intent was for all the normal rules of dex to apply, just to cha instead. Meaning maximum dex bonus of your armor still applies. Could use a clarification, though.
Flavor-wise, the reason why it still applies is because you're not actually using your "force of personality" to deflect the attacks. (The attack doesn't miss just because you willed it to). The idea is that you're using cha because you're so in tune to your surroundings, that you can feel the right time to dodge an attack, as opposed to simply reacting to it. That feeling does not, however, allow you to ignore the restrictions of your armor. Your body doesn't become less restricted just because you have a sixth sense about incoming attacks.
That's my interpretation, at least.
In response to the sixth sense comment I would have to comment the opposite might also be true from another perspective. Sure you may not be able to react as fast as having the dexterity but you are Extraordinarily aware of all movements your Opponent is making or is about to make. This makes me Believe you have more time to react and simply are not reacting faster. "more time to put that shield in the way versus putting that shield in the way faster" Also keep in Mind adrenaline based effects like sudden massive bursts of strength or agility due to fight or flight instincts.. This concept has caused terrified housewives to lift cars off their infantile children (as farfetched as it sounds it's happened)
Princess Animal Parts wrote: Keep in mind One applies to Reflex and the other Applies to CMD another Reason why the Original Question was Brought up That's the other reason for why I'm pretty sure the "max dex" limit still applies. Both abilities seem to be intended to give two benefits with the same drawbacks. It's a classic editing mistake for our beloved Paizo.
Generally speaking, though, when you use one ability score in place of another, all the same restrictions of the original still apply -- you're just substituting the relevant modifier; for example, when you use an ability that lets you substitute Wis in place of Dex for skills (there's a trait that does this), the armor check penalty on that skill still applies even though the modifiers were swapped. Unless it specifically states that a pre-existing restriction no longer applies you're usually supposed to assume the restriction is still there. As with everything else: exceptions do exist, but in this case I do believe this was the intent. Hence, at my table I'd still enforce the max dex limit.
Kazejin wrote: Princess Animal Parts wrote: Keep in mind One applies to Reflex and the other Applies to CMD another Reason why the Original Question was Brought up That's the other reason for why I'm pretty sure the "max dex" limit still applies. Both abilities seem to be intended to give two benefits with the same drawbacks. It's a classic editing mistake for our beloved Paizo.
Generally speaking, though, when you use one ability score in place of another, all the same restrictions of the original still apply -- you're just substituting the relevant modifier; for example, when you use an ability that lets you substitute Wis in place of Dex for skills (there's a trait that does this), the armor check penalty on that skill still applies even though the modifiers were swapped. Unless it specifically states that a pre-existing restriction no longer applies you're usually supposed to assume the restriction is still there. As with everything else: exceptions do exist, but in this case I do believe this was the intent. Hence, at my table I'd still enforce the max dex limit. Which is why I intend to wait for A Paizo Staff Member to clarify.
Just because They Usually Intend Doesn't Mean they Do Intend it to work as such. Your Claim Makes Sense, as do Everyone elses. This is Explicitly why I Said I Can't Leave this Up to GM Discretion and asked for a more Authoritative Reply to this Thread.
However the current Vote is that Nature's Whispers is unrestricted 3 votes for yes 1 Vote for No
I believe that both, RAI, are restricted to the same limitations of Dexterity. They're both very powerful abilities for a Charisma based caster, and allowing anything more seems unbalanced when looking at the system as a whole.
Simply put, an oracle in full plate armor adding her full Charisma bonus to her AC seems incredibly overpowered when it replaces what can, at most, be a +3 bonus (mithril full plate).
Sean FitzSimon wrote: I believe that both, RAI, are restricted to the same limitations of Dexterity. They're both very powerful abilities for a Charisma based caster, and allowing anything more seems unbalanced when looking at the system as a whole.
Simply put, an oracle in full plate armor adding her full Charisma bonus to her AC seems incredibly overpowered when it replaces what can, at most, be a +3 bonus (mithril full plate).
Even if it does there is a method of getting around it anyway
Aasimar Purifier Oracle's Get Fight Armor Training and don't have to alter their Mystery. If they Dump Their Favored Class Bonus Into the Revalation that they don't Have Access to (but can still apply it like that anyway because of how it's Worded)for a non-specialized Aasimar Purifier Oracle He is Getting at least A +6 Maximum "charisma Bonus To his AC. I Can't say I see how you feel this is overpowered even if this limit doesn't apply There Have Been Plenty of AC optimized builds that do so much more than an Oracle. At the End of the Day you simnply Have a Tanky Support Caster Whose Damage Output is dependant on the Type of Enemy he is Fighting or the Creature He Managed to summon while Being threatened. I'm not Saying I'm not glad the Divine Caster's in my Party have Been Nice enough To summon Celestial Anklyosaurus to Merc Demon with my Reckless Abandon Barbarian... but let's Face it An Oracle Has Limited Spells Known Can't Channel and has 24-31 AC from His armor And Charisma? His CMD Isn't Hideous from the bonus either For He doesn't have Full base attack progression Unless he makes his Perception and Get's freedom of Movement off that Giant Boa Constricter is still shutting him down his reflex isn't particularly good so that fireball is still punishing him He's not getting his Charisma bonus to Saves. he's Susceptible to all kind's of nasty Spells. Cast Silence on him he's shut down for the duration (unless it's a deaf oracle)
I learned a lot from Running an AC Optimized Character.
27 AC 2nd level I'm still getting smacked in the face by Creatures i'm still getting hit by Spells. The GM's Ability to Justify Altered Course of Action based on the intelligence of the Creatures he's given without disobeying Morale or Basic Tactics( or without being a jerk) is a Balancing Weight When Dealing with Such Specialized Characters. Just because you're hard to hit doesn't mean your prepared for when you do, when you fight that +25 to hit with 5 Primary Natural Attacks and a trip. It's only Broken Against Mooks.The Ghost is Still Touching you and stealing your CON, Shadoews are still stealing your Strength. Oh I failed my Will Save? (Magic Jar) I'm Casting Harm on the Party/ Heal on the Enemy
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