I'm toying around with the Brawler archetype, looking to make a character for one of th eguys in my group - I'm kind of a dork when it comes to character creation. I like to optimize, but not outside the box insane optimization... rather I choose a character concept and, within the framework of that concept try to make him (or her) as effective as possible.
This is the rough draft of the Brawler I came up with - he fights with two cestuses (cesti?) because I really didn't know what the best options were and cestsi (yeah, I'm going to stick with that) offers damage type options, free hands and are near as I can tell impossible to disarm a person of... but I'm very open to suggestions on this. Imagine my surprise when I found out, after spiked bucklers being a staple of fantasy role-playing games for decades, that in Pathfinder you can't put spikes on a buckler...
Human 20th level Brawler
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 14
DEX - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 12
CHA - 7 (+1 at 20th level)
Traits:
Blade of Mercy
Auspicious Tattoo
Feats:
1st - Two Weapon Fighting
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Double Slice
2nd - Weapon Focus: Cestus
3rd - Power Attack
4th - Weapon Specialization: Cestus
5th - Step Up
6th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th - Disruptive
8th - Following Step
9th - Step Up and Strike
10th - Spellbreaker
11th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12th - Greater Weapon Focus: Cestus
13th - Combat Reflexes
13th - Standstill
14th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Cestus
15th - Improved Critical: Cestus
16th - Critical Focus
17th - Sickening Critical
18th - Staggering Critical
19th - Stunning Critical
20th - Critical Mastery
My thoughts are that he'd be a handful for anyone who went toe-to-toe with him and absolute hell on spellcasters... I have some concerns that I've invested so many 'anti-caster' feats in him when at mid to high levels you seem to face spell-like abilities a lot more often than you do actual spells - is there any merit to this worry?
At 7th level these are his offensive stats without any magic items:
7th level
Attack: +10/+10/+5/+5
+7/+2 [BAB] +4 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +1 [Focus] -2 [PA] +2 [Close]
Damage: 1d4+12
1d4 [Cestus] +2 [Str] +4 [PA] +4 [Close] +2 [Specialization]
At 11th level:
11th level
Attack: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5
+11/+6/+1 [BAB] +5 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +1 [Focus] -3 [PA] +3 [Close]
Damage: 1d4+15
1d4 [Cestus] +2 [Str] +6 [PA] +5 [Close] +2 [Specialization]
At 15th level:
15th level
Attack: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10
+15/+10/+5 [BAB] +5 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +2 [Greater Focus] -4 [PA] +4 [Close]
Damage: 1d4+20
1d4 [Cestus] +2 [Str] +8 [PA] +6 [Close] +2 [Greater Specialization]
And at 19th level:
19th level
Attack: +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10
+19/+14/+9/+4 [BAB] +6 [Dex] -2 [TWF] +2 [Greater Focus] -5 [PA] +5 [Close]
Damage: 1d4+23
1d4 [Cestus] +2 [Str] +10 [PA] +7 [Close] +2 [Greater Specialization]
I realize that you give up something when you give up Weapon Training, though the brawler does advance Close Fighting at an accelerated rate - and obviously with magical enhancements all of these numbers escalate accordingly.
At the moment I'm kind of liking him, but he feels unfinished. Any thoughts, comments, advice or criticisms would be welcome - I've never messed around with this archetype before.
Well, the brawler does have one of the key reasons to go with TWF: a decent bonus to each melee hit. Since it is a fixed bonus, that makes it even better than the circumstantial natures sneak attack, favored enemy, or smite. Heck, you are doing better than a Two-Weapon Warrior, which is an archetype designed for TWF, since your bonuses to damage make up for relatively low strength, getting a full 3 more damage per strike from your weapon training replacement.
I do not really see a problem of trading in weapon training for close combat. You are going to take feats to specialize in a specific weapon anyway, so it is not like you are planning to suddenly take up spears. Plus, unlike many weapon users, you are not going to lose your weapons to a random disarm followed by a rapid retreat or something. Heck, you might not ever even remove your weapon, so you do not even have to draw your weapon.
Over all, the only thing I can say is to look into the Agile weapon enhancement. This will add your DEX to your damage rolls, complimenting weapon finesse. That would mean getting a +5 on main hand damage rolls instead of that +2. Rounding down, this means that you would get an extra 15 damage per round at level 19. Also, I have a question for other people on the forums: would brawler armor enhancement affect the cestus? While it is a manufactured weapon, but the term "unarmed strike" is used throughout the weapon description as the way the cestus is used (also logic would dictate that something that increases punching damage would also help with damage from a spiked glove or brass knuckle). If it does apply, get that since that would be an extra +2 damage per hit.
I just realized that the Cestus causes P or B damage and Blade of Mercy clearly relates only to S damage, so that'll need to be changed...
Are there weapons I should be considering other than the Cestus? I really don't see anything better... I thought about combining a pair of madu with the trait Threatening Defender and then fighting with Combat Expertise, though I'd have to scrounge up an extra Intelligence point to do it and shift some feats around...
I also thought about taking a couple of levels of Barbarian but I'm not sure that would work - Only Urban Barbarian would grant a Dex boost from Rage and it comes without the increased movement I would want.
I do not really see a problem of trading in weapon training for close combat. You are going to take feats to specialize in a specific weapon anyway, so it is not like you are planning to suddenly take up spears.
I was lamenting the loss of Weapon training solely due to the Fighter staple Gloves of Dueling... as I said though, it won't break me.
FWIW, we've got a number of common sense house-rules when it comes to combat, many of them aimed at easing the feat tax a bit... as such, its been ruled that if you take Double Slice, it applies to the benefits gained from Power Attack and other similar feats and abilities. There's no reason why someone who is extensively trained in two weapon fighting would be only half as threatening with one hand as with the other.
EDIT: Looking at the build, I gotta say, between Menacing Stance, No Escape, Disruptive, Spellbreaker and Step Up and Strike, he's going to tear some spellcasters a new one.
If a Wizard takes a 5' step back he provokes an AoO, plus I follow and make another AoO. He then casts defensively, suffering a penalty of -8 (-9 at 11th, -10 at 15th and -11 at 19th), and if that spell fails he provokes yet another AoO... any bets how long he survives once I follow that up with a full attack action?
Of course those pesky Wizards are reknown for staying out of strangle range... gonna have to figure out a way to get to them for this to work.
As you are using Light weapons, I would take Piranha Strike instead of Power Attack.
You won't even need the 13 strength.
If I can be guaranteed of getting Agile weapons I will do exactly that... I just so hate basing an entire build off of specific magic items though.
Why he provoke if the fails the cast defensively check?
If a Wizard takes a 5' step back he provokes an AoO, plus I follow and make another AoO. He then casts defensively, suffering a penalty of -8 (-9 at 11th, -10 at 15th and -11 at 19th), and if that spell fails he provokes yet another AoO... any bets how long he survives once I follow that up with a full attack action?
I'm moving some feats around as we speak to get Combat Reflexes in there earlier to make sure I can take full advantage of this though.
You can get Piranha Strike first level, and since you are using Weapon Finesse, you will be fine for to hit.
Your Reflex saves will be higher, as well as AC, and Acrobatics.
I don't think I can really bump Dex up too much more than it is... I'd probably drop Strength to 10 and bump Constitution to 16 instead. Probably.
I'm starting to wonder if Pirahna Strike / Power Attack is actually worth it - I'm basically trading -X attack to deal +X damage for half of my attacks... its probably more important for those iteratives and occaisional criticals to hit, no?
If you go strength, then you could wield a large Cestus with two hands.
I don't think that's how cestus work. They're almost like spiked forearm guards.
And of course that woudl kind of defeat the whole TWF thing...
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RAW works. Wear a Large Cestus on your main hand, and normal on your off-hand.
Two hand the large one when making a single attack for more damage from strength and power attack.
You could also do this during a full attack, and make an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike. This means you are still two-weapon fighting.
You could Pick up brawling armor and an amulet of mighty fist with the money you saved from enchanting your cestus. +7 to hit and damage, enchant your AoMF with agile...
You could Pick up brawling armor and an amulet of mighty fist with the money you saved from enchanting your cestus. +7 to hit and damage, enchant your AoMF with agile...
Wow - okay, this post really got me thinking. A one-level dip in Monk would get me Unarmed Strike for free, Combat Reflexes for free, bumps to my Reflex and Will saves equivalent to Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will for free, d6 damage for unarmed strikes, the ability to deal leathal or non-lethal damage and the (admittedly weak) Stunning Fist feat as well.F inally, if I ever lose my armor, I get a nice AC bonus.
That's really a no-brainer, isn't it? Now I can do as you suggest and take Amulet of Mighty Fists, enchanted with the Agile quality and light armor enchanted with the Brawler quality which will be good because it will still allow me to use my Dex for AC and stay unemcumbered - moving around the battlefield will be a must for this character. As a bonus, all of a sudden I'm immune from being disarmed or sundered, and an Amulet of Mighty Fists is half the cost of two enchanted close weapons.
This is the build I'm now thinking of and its much improved over the initial one:
Human 1st level Monk / 19th level Brawler
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level)
CON - 16
INT - 12
WIS - 12
CHA - 7 (+1 at 20th level)
Traits:
Reactionary
Carefully Hidden
Feats:
1st - Improved Unarmed Strike
1st - Combat Reflexes
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Two Weapon Fighting
1st - Stunning Fist
2nd - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
3rd - Piranha Strike
3rd - Double Slice
5th - Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
5th - Step Up
7th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th - Disruptive
9th - Following Step
9th - Step Up and Strike
11th - Spellbreaker
11th - Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
13th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
14th - Standstill
15th - Agile Maneuvers
15th - Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
17th - Critical Focus
17th - Sickening Critical
18th - Staggering Critical
19th - Stunning Critical
20th - Critical Mastery
I was really torn between Toughness and Agile Manuevers at level 15, and I'm still going back and forth on it.
I am trying to wrap my mind around the concept of what is effectively two-handing a spiked boxing glove.
It is a hilarious mental image.
Remember the 'Axe Handle' punch?
I am working on something similar over here. Might get some tips from it.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ph52?Snakes-on-a-Crane#41
Well, if you are going to dip monk, you might as well go with Master of Many styles. The flurry of blows has too big a cost since it requires you to go unarmored. Master of many styles can give you a style feat for free, with no prerequisites.
Snake style would let you get piercing damage with unarmed strikes, and could use your sense motive skill instead of your AC (useful against touch attacks). Tiger style gives you slashing unarmed strikes, bonuses to a few maneuvers, and something like bleeding critical. Dragon style is always popular for being able to get 1.5x STR damage on the first unarmed strike of a round. Panther style lets you make retaliatory AoO's against those that make AoO's against you for moving through their territory. Crane style is nice if you plan to fight defensively, giving you extra AC and reducing the penalties to hit.
As a note though, your decision to keep the critical feats while moving towards unarmed strikes might not be such a great idea. If a remember correctly, the critical threat range for unarmed strikes is still 20/x2 even for monks. With this, you would only get the same critical range as the unaltered cestus at best.
Well, if you are going to dip monk, you might as well go with Master of Many styles. The flurry of blows has too big a cost since it requires you to go unarmored. Master of many styles can give you a style feat for free, with no prerequisites.
Snake style would let you get piercing damage with unarmed strikes, and could use your sense motive skill instead of your AC (useful against touch attacks). Tiger style gives you slashing unarmed strikes, bonuses to a few maneuvers, and something like bleeding critical. Dragon style is always popular for being able to get 1.5x STR damage on the first unarmed strike of a round. Panther style lets you make retaliatory AoO's against those that make AoO's against you for moving through their territory. Crane style is nice if you plan to fight defensively, giving you extra AC and reducing the penalties to hit.
As a note though, your decision to keep the critical feats while moving towards unarmed strikes might not be such a great idea. If a remember correctly, the critical threat range for unarmed strikes is still 20/x2 even for monks. With this, you would only get the same critical range as the unaltered cestus at best.
Oh, I'm ignoring Flurry of Blows completely, and to be honest, I need those bonus feats to free up some slots later on down the road.
That's an excellent point about the critical feats - I'll definitely re-think that. With Improved Critical and so many attacks I think its still viable, but it is using up a LOT of feats that might be more effective elsewhere. Especially since I'll be able to call a Stunned Shot from time to time (spellcasters beware).
I'm familiar with the Snake Style/Sense Motive thing since I use it on my Zen Archer, but if I were to go with just one Style feat, what would you reccomend for this build?
Snake style for sure. EVERY time someone misses you, you get an AoO. If that hits you get another free hit. Crane is great, but the crane riposte only works once per round. My guy will close with the big bad and if his first attack hits, crane riposte. Every off iteration should miss and then I get free attacks... And lots of them.
Snake style for sure. EVERY time someone misses you, you get an AoO. If that hits you get another free hit. Crane is great, but the crane riposte only works once per round. My guy will close with the big bad and if his first attack hits, crane riposte. Every off iteration should miss and then I get free attacks... And lots of them.
You have to follow the entire chain to get that benefit, though I'll grant its a good one and I shold have AoO's to spare. If I decide to go all the way it'll be a pretty sick option, though I might have to rethink my low wisdom and my intention not to put any ranks into Sense Motive...
...nah, like as not I'll ignore that option unless someone is trying to use a ranged touch attack against me.
If I take only a single Style feat though, I'm looking hard at Boar Style which I rarely see mentioned - right off the bat I basically get a 2d6 damage bonus.
Snake Style eats up swift actions. Not quite as good as it looks.
What else would I use them for? No Quickened spells, no Arcane Strike... Snake Style might actually give me the chance to use some of my swift actions for a change.
If you go unarmed fighter then you can get snake strike by lvl 2.
Btw, snake style uses immediate action not swift.
Well, I did bring up Snake and Tiger styles first since they cover a problem with using unarmed strikes: damage type. They both give one extra type for you to use (piercing and slashing respectively), which could end up getting you through some of the weird DRs. Those can't be covered by just having a AoMF with a large enough enhancement bonus.
Plus the two styles make images that make me feel fuzzy inside. *queue sound effects of people screaming, flames raging, and me laughing manically.* In seriousness though, there can be interesting things you can accomplish with these two styles. I particularly like hamatula strike, which could be done with any piercing melee weapon, that gives you a free grapple attempt on a successful strike by impaling the target. Although... that again leads to the fuzzy images, which I have been informed tends to be reserved for Evil characters for some reason.
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Alright, I think I've finally nailed down this build - many thanks to those who offered insightful suggestions:
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Human 1st level Monk / 19th level Brawler
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 12
DEX - 16 (+2 racial modifier, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 7 (+1 at 20th level)
Traits:
Resilient (+1 Fortitude saves)
Auspicious Tattoo (+1 Will saves)
Feats:
1st - Improved Unarmed Strike
1st - Combat Reflexes
1st - Weapon Finesse
1st - Two Weapon Fighting
1st - Stunning Fist
2nd - Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
3rd - Snake Style
3rd - Piranha Strike
5th - Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
5th - Double Slice
7th - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7th - Disruptive
9th - Agile Maneuvers
9th - Standstill
11th - Snake Sidewind
11th - Snake Fang
13th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th - Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
14th - Spellbreaker
15th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike
15th - Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
17th - Critical Focus
17th - Sickening Critical
19th - Staggering Critical
19th - Stunning Critical
Skills:
Sense Motive - 1/level
Acrobatics - 1/level
Climb - 1@ 1st level
Swim - 1 @ 1st level
Perception - 1/odd level after 1st
Stealth - 1/even level after 1st
Survival - 1/level
Standard Equipment:
Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile enhancement, Light armor or Bracers of Armor with the Brawling enhancement
Normally I'm not a big fan of denoting equipment as part of a build, but in this case the equipment isn't really needed to make the build go and the items mentioned are too ideal a fit to ignore.
I went with the Snake Style feat line due to all of the additional attacks it could garnish - the Step-Up line became a bit redundant once I realized the best way to optimize my 'No Escape' ability with the Standstill feat.
All in all, this is one of the better characters I've made - a bit of a one-trick pony asmost Fighter builds tend to be, but he's got some versatility within that framework as he can't be disarmed or sundered, can deal piercing or bludgeoning damage, can deal lethal or non-lethal damage and is almost as dangerous naked as most melee-types are fully armed and armored.
Thanks again for all the help.
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Depending on what rulebook you are using, the cestus won't work with the brawler. The paizo prd doesn't list the cestus as being in the close weapon group, but ultimate combat does:
PRD:
Close
Armor spikes, bayonet, brass knuckles, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, shield spikes, spiked gauntlet, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart
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The Close Weapon Group:
Bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.
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The Close Weapon Group:
Bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.
Which source - it still shows up offsite in the d20pfsrd and in the Ultimate Combat pdf but it was removed from the close group by the more recent Ultimate Equipment (and then removed from the group in the paizo prd).
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Which source - it still shows up offsite in the d20pfsrd and in the Ultimate Combat pdf but it was removed from the close group by the more recent Ultimate Equipment (and then removed from the group in the paizo prd).The Close Weapon Group:
Bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.
Yeah. The Cestus seems to pop in, and out, of the Close Weapon Group.
I carefully viewed all the listed sources, and there seems to be no general consensus on where it belongs.
Sounds like DM fiat time.
More importantly, take 2 levels of monk as a dip.
Especially if you are taking Master of many styles, you get another style feat with no pre-reqs, the same BAB as a fighter for that level, evasion (since brawling enchant is only light armor and you have good dex from TWF), another +1 to will/reflex, and by taking them in your build at odd levels (specifically 3rd and 7th/9th) you can double tap a couple of style feat chains to bypass.
I'm a fan of dragon to charge thru difficult terrain and do 1.5 Str and snake to double tap anyone that misses, but boar/crane/panther/tiger are fun too.
Trying to understand - would Master of Many Styles allow someone to take Snake Style and then Snake Fang without taking Snake Sidewind?