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I'm beginning a campaign at fourth level in a party of five gestalt characters, and it looks like the GM will have enough content to bring us past level 20. We'll be adventuring through a megadungeon with the only nearby population centres being a village days away and a small city weeks away. We are currently heavy on melee characters (currently three melee, one ranged), and it sounds like everyone's decided to go heavy on the damage front. We do have an arcane caster, but being half-magus, he's also interested on being in the front-lines. At the moment, I don't see that we have much in the way of crowd control, so I can expect we're going to take quite a bit of damage while dealing with it.
I've decided I want my character to be a Paladin/Oracle of Life, initially due to the synergy between Life Link / Shield Other spam and Lay on Hands (in addition to the benefits of Charisma for both classes). Hopefully, I won't spending all my time enabling the other party members' offensive focus, and can be useful elsewhere. To this end, I am caught up on feat selection. Here are a bunch of feat groupings I'm interested in, along with thoughts surrounding them. If anyone could comment on them, I'd be grateful.
Healing Related:
Fey Foundling - Level 1 pick: The strongest healing feat I can get.
Extra Lay on Hands - A very good healing feat, but given the number of feats that are competing for my slots, I probably don't have enough room for it.
Greater Mercy - Scales almost on par with ELoH when not , and it gives access to UM.
Ultimate Mercy - Free Raise Dead on everyone but me? Yes please. Oh wait, how frequently are we going to die? This is something I'll be interested in figuring out as we play if I look at how frequently we are close to dying. Not taking it frees me up to take ELoH instead of GMercy if needed.
Selective Channeling - needed if I'm going to be using Channel in combat, but will I really be using it in combat?
Quick Channel - well, this lets me use Channel in combat. Do I have better things to be doing?
Survival Related:
Toughness - improves my hp buffer moderately, but not exactly exciting considering the other options.
Diehard - I'm already a half-orc with Shaman's Apprentice (giving Endurance), and I've traded out Ferocity for Tribal Tatoos. On the plus side I gain a decent hp buffer, and can still act if I've absorbed a huge hit. On the down side, I'll never drop off the threat list, and can be pounded until dead. Also, it might be not needed at all if I don't find my self yo-yo-ing around the 0hp line frequently.
Deathless Initiate - upgrading Diehard to full-round actions could be useful? If I spend a LoH to bring me back above 0 hp without this feat, do I lose the staggered condition and will be allowed to use full-round actions again?
Tenacious Survivor - Free Raise Dead on me! The other side of Ultimate Mercy, and possibly more useful if I'm frequently needing to Diehard due to hp absorption. Still has the same problem as Ultimate Mercy, and there is one other person who will be able to Raise Dead in the party, (but two who can cast healing spells).
Utility Related:
Unsanctioned Knowledge - There are so many spells off the bard list that can make for awesome utility.
Craft Magic __ - We're far away from trade centres, so it could be handy to have a magical crafting feat.
Archery Related:
Given the number of non-combat feats I am interested in, I don't think I can afford delving into feat-intensive archery, even if it would help bring the party away from the huge melee focus we currently have.
Melee Related:
Power Attack - I've got full BAB, a high-crit two-hander, decent strength, and smite! This should be a pretty easy choice, shoudln't it? I wouldn't take much else damage focused, considering everything else fighting for feat slots. My reservations comes from the massive damage potentials in the other characters (who are mostly melee). Do we need my damage to be improved, especially when I don't see my self on the front lines as often as the other three melee characters?
Protection Related:
Escape Route - With a melee heavy group this is pretty awesome, especially since the whole group is looking at it anyway.
Combat Reflexes - Currently running a decent Dexterity modifier with a reach weapon in my golf bag. Considering I'll be in full-plate (eventually mithral), it does limit my provoking opportunities
Bodyguard - +2 AC per incoming attack up to your Dex modifier is pretty nifty, especially if using a reach weapon from behind (DM variance etc etc)
Arcane Strike - This is way out there, but Unsanctioned Knowledge makes this available, and Gloves of Arcane Striking makes Bodyguard fearsome. Of course, this is a four feat investment (plus magic item) for a pretty gimmicky use, even if every feat (and item) gives MORE options as opposed to just adding numbers to current options.
Once I actually get playing the character, I can see what direction I'll be gravitating toward, but that doesn't really help me choose the level three feat slot that I need before I start playing. If channeling turns out to be be bad mid-combat, I don't want to take Selective Channeling. If I'm rarely hitting things with my stick aside from smiting, then Power Attack kind loses its attraction. If I'm not swinging in and out of negative hp frequently, Diehard's wasted. Etc. So, I guess the question is: What do I see myself doing in combat? I'm still a full divine caster, and as such I can see myself spending a lot of time enabling the rest of the party. On the other hand, I have smite and full BAB. It seems kind of a waste to neglect that portion my class completely, drop my strength a bit more, and go into something like Hospitaler (especially since that archetype shuts out both Oaths of Loyalty and Vengeance, which could be useful on occasion).
Maybe I've missed some feats that I should be interested in. Does anyone have any ideas? Comments? Critiques? Criticisms?
Man, I would be so tempted to take the Battle mystery instead. Check out the revelations Combat Healer, War Sight, Surprising Charge, Weapon Mastery, and Iron Skin, and then reconsider whether you want to play the healbot.
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I was initially considering the Metal mystery, but our group is so melee heavy, I figured I probably shouldn't add yet another full-on melee character. A gestalt with Battle mystery's looking to do the same thing. The bonus spells are pretty awesome, though. The idea with the Life mystery gestalt is that I wouldn't need to spend most of my time strictly healing, and instead be able to use my spells on something other than cures, supplemented by some middle row reach melee action through Power Attack and/or Bodyguard.
If this is what you are dead set on, then it looks great! I would suggest going bard though. 3good saves, excellent skills and skill buffing class abilities, great melee/ healing synergies, and so on.
I guess I'm just not very excited by in-combat healing. As you mentioned, your party could definitely use a battlefield controller - would you consider something like a Wizard/Lore Warden? Fight with a whip so you can trip/disarm (while Enlarged, of course) when you're not busy owning the enemies with spells like Glitterdust, Create Pit, Minor Image, Stinking Cloud, and Black Tentacles.
Kensai magus/ MoMS monk FTW!
I took a 1 level dip into oracle of nature to get cha to armor instead of dex. Then you get cha to armor again with smite as a deflection bonus. It's so awesome.
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I took a 1 level dip into oracle of nature to get cha to armor instead of dex. Then you get cha to armor again with smite as a deflection bonus. It's so awesome.
The rest of the mysteries aren't all that interesting, though, and I'll be having to take five more over the course of my career.
I just realized that Unsanctioned Knowledge requires 13 intellect, which has put me on the spot. Here's what I was planning on getting with it:
1st-Expeditious Retreat
2nd-Mirror Image
3rd-Good Hope
4th-Dimension Door
I can start with 13 int, and that would change my stats to something like Str16 Dex12 Con14 Int13 Wis8 Cha15. This is a bit of a problem, since at level 20, I'll have an odd ability score (this also pretty much cuts off Bodyguard). On the other hand, I could find a Headband of Mental Prowess (eventually) +4/+6 and take the feat then, which would let me stick with my original idea of Str16 Dex14 Con14 Int10 Wis8 Cha15. On the other other hand, Belts of Physical Prowess/Might that include Dex are going to shove me into my armor's Max Dex bonus pretty quickly, so maybe I should start out with a Dex of 12 (fullplate) 12 (mithral fullplate), meaning I could actually go Str17 Dex10 Con14 Int13 Wis8 Cha15?
Regardless, if I want Unsanctioned Knowledge, my Dex is going to be low enough to the point where Bodyguard (+Arcane Strike) is going to be a very lategame strategy (or Unsanctioned Knowledge is), since +Dex belts aren't exactly top priority (and two/three people in the party value Dex much more than me).
Is Unsanctioned Knowledge for those spells worth thinking about it this hard?
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Man, I would be so tempted to take the Battle mystery instead. Check out the revelations Combat Healer, War Sight, Surprising Charge, Weapon Mastery, and Iron Skin, and then reconsider whether you want to play the healbot.+1 on this.
I've played this combo before in a gestalt game and it rocked. I played the pally as a sword and board build, and almost never had to rely on spells in higher levels. Between the cure spells you get and lay on hands, you'll have more than enough to go around.
What feats did you take, and what kind of shield did you use?
If this is what you are dead set on, then it looks great! I would suggest going bard though. 3good saves, excellent skills and skill buffing class abilities, great melee/ healing synergies, and so on.What synergies are you thinking of?
Inspire courage and smite go well together. As far as buffing and healing, there is nothing special that can't be done with an oracle. But because of inspire courage and only casting 6th lvl spells, cha isn't quite as important as it would be for an oracle which lets you focus more on other stats without loosing out as much.
So maybe not AS much synergy for healing/buffing, but there is the 3 good saves, excellent skills, and the melee is still there.
Serum, your initial idea is really good for a ranged character. Grab a bow and go to town. Your party doesn't need a melee monster, so you can be an archer Paladin, and still be a full caster with your Oracle spells. I love that combo, personally.
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Serum, your initial idea is really good for a ranged character. Grab a bow and go to town. Your party doesn't need a melee monster, so you can be an archer Paladin, and still be a full caster with your Oracle spells. I love that combo, personally.
How many feats would you sink into the archery role over 20 levels?
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Fair enough. For my group, I think that being a full caster will be more helpful in the long run.Then I would Consider Oracle (heavens)/Sorceror.
You do loose out on a good fort save thoug at 20 you get charisma to all saves just like a Paladin.
With Awsome display your Color Spray and other patterns will stay effective.
If you take Deaf Oracle, all your spells are silent so you can mess up casters with silence spell and not be affected, as a sorceror you avoid material components for most things.
As a half elf you have access to Paragon Surge which means you will have access to ANY spell.
I woudl go Arcane for Sorceror and make a staff with a variety of spells which you can at 20 activate for 3 spell levels raher then a charge. Heightened bouncing flesh to stone etc etc as effectively a 3rd level slot.
Look into ring of continuance (applied with paragon surge to know the spell long enough to enchante a staff with it).
Thanks for all these class combination suggestions, everyone, but I've been pretty set on the combination I presented in the OP. I'll consider your recommendations if/when my character dies horribly and I need to roll up another.
If anyone could suggest feats to go with with this particular gestalt, or could comment on the feats I'm already looking at, it'd be greatly appreciated.
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I don't think Unsanctioned Knowledge actually qualifies you for Arcane Strike, does it? It says you add them "as paladin spells", meaning you'd cast them as divine spells. It'd still be a worthwhile feat, as with that and your gestalt you'd be able to get pretty much any spell you wanted.
I also don't think you need to pick the Life mystery just for healing's sake-- between LoH and the spont-cures, you should be good. Learn a proactive defensive buff or two and you're golden, then pick your mystery based on what you'd have the most fun playing.
Paladin/Oracle is a good combo choice. Remember, Paladins have to be Lawful Good, but Oracles don't have to share an alignment with the deity who's the source of their magic. Personally, I love the idea of an Oracle of, say, Fire, who is kept awake at night wondering if it's Sarenrae or Asmodeus granting her power.
Since everyone else in your party is focusing on melee and you're piling on the Charisma, you'll probably end up as the party face. Might it be worthwhile to take Persuasive?
Oracle of Life/Hospitaler
Level 1
Fey Foundling, Tribal Scars (pick best for you)
Favorite Curse, Channel Revelation
Level 3:
Improved Channel (pre--req)
Life Link Revelation
Level 5:
Quicken Channel
Level 5 Synopsis of Healing:
you have lay on hands (2+Cha Mod) times per day.
you have Channel (Oracle) (1+Cha Mod) times per day.
you have Channel (Hospitaler [Cleric -3]) (3+ Cha Mod) times per day.
Tons of healing, all usable at move action or less (for self heals). . . freeing up standard actions for your full casting.
Learn 'Shield Other' so you can cast it on the tanky guy (assuming not you). Life Link with the tanky person, and anyone else you feel like. Use lay on hands to heal yourself as necessary from the rear while you cast spells, channel, or whatever else you feel like. In a pinch, use up two of your 10+ channels per day to quicken a channel, and lay on hands, and [insert standard action here] or channel normally for a HUGE healing nova.
3d6+6 Quickened Oracle Channel, = 16.5 average to you, 10.5 for allies. (2/5 Oracle channel/day)
2d6+4 Lay on Hands = 11 average (1/6 Lay on Hands/day)
And now you have a standard action to do with as you please.. . including making another channel if needed.
Ally healing is not including life link/shield other benefits, which should be up just to capitalize on your channel and lay on hands capability...
Probably overkill, but fun, especially if you are in an undead rich environment.
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Luckily, Improved Channel isn't a prereq for anything but Bestow Hope, so I could replace it with Selective Channeling. Hospitaler's probably even further overkill than Oracle of Life.
Silent Saturn, thanks for pointing that out! You're right, they're still considered Divine Spells. That pretty effectively shuts down the gimmicky late-game Bodyguard strategy.
I think the problem I have with most revelations in the mysteries is that they're either gimmicky or incredibly limited, especially once you need to start taking more than 2-3.
I think the problem I have with most revelations in the mysteries is that they're either gimmicky or incredibly limited, especially once you need to start taking more than 2-3.
This is definitely a problem with the Oracle class - it's also the reason why Battle mystery is so awesome!
it sounds like you're pretty well set on the direction you're heading, but i'd second the idea that it sounds like you're party could use a full-blown caster. wizard/druid or witch/druid are fun combos. it looks like you're on a 20 point buy, so 2 classes with the same casting stat could be really effective: sorcerer/oracle is an obvious one; empyreal wildblooded sorcerer/cleric or druid could be really interesting, as could a sage sorcerer/wizard or witch... or even a wizard/witch. as a human you could start with 20 in whatever your casting stat is (with 3 points left for Con or whatever). that's a lot of bonus spells, and a solid DC for all your spells; plus you'll gain double the benefit from metamagic feats and things like spell focus. the only real issue would be if you're getting into so many fights (or such long fights) that you're running out of spells (cause you probably won't have much else to do)- but if that's the case you won't be any better off with a paladin... if you're worried about resources pair whatever you want with fighter or rogue (or possibly monk) because their abilities aren't limited to a number of uses per day.
i don't typically suggest summoners (i think they tend to be overpowered), but in a gestalt campaign it could work for you... your eidolon can easily be effective in combat (and can be used in as many combats as come up) and you would get the summoner's skills and spells (and possibly BAB/HD) to supplement sorcerer or oracle levels. the biggest benefit would be that you double your actions per round (you can cast while your eidolon fights).
For a full blown caster gestalt, you can't go too far wrong with Oracle/Sorcerer. Unlike most combinations, this one works wonders. Full arcane + full divine all in the same Cha Stat. In addition, you can stack face skills! Your spells/day will be huge with a 19 charisma, and depending on wand availability, the build just gets stronger.
Life is a great healing oracle, and heavens is a huge power house for an illusion based caster. If you chose gnome as a race, and heavens, you will have quite powerful shutdown powers tied up in Color Spray. There are more than a couple threads on the topic, so I won't belabor the point here.
Given your current party make up (three melee and 1 ranged) a full divine/full arcane might be just what the doctor ordered.
For feats, take Combat Casting. It's good for any melee caster, but it's especially great with Combat Healer. Say you're fighting an undead - you cast a quickened Cure Serious Wounds to harm it, then make your full attack smiting.
Battle mystery is one mystery where it's worth it to take Extra Revelation, so you can get War Sight, Surprising Charge, and Weapon Mastery by level 3. Then at 7 take Combat Healer and Iron Skin at 11.
Greater Mercy is good at level 5 to boost your Lay on Hands +1d6. Reward of Grace is great, Reward of Life is also good if you're going to be using Shield Other. Divine Interference is a great feat at level 11.
Power Attack and Furious Focus would also be good.
remember, too, that a sorcerer's bloodline arcana affects all spells- not just sorcerer ones... so ones that boost DC (like fey or infernal) or damage (like draconic, orc, or the primal wildbloodline) will effect both classes! i think there's great potential for thematic combos too- heavens and starsoul could be a really fun astrologer type; dark tapestry and void touched (wildbloodline) would be sort of similar but more out there (sort of lovecraftian); bones and undead would make for a pretty serious necromancer; nature and verdant or wood and sylvan (wildbloodline) can learn all sorts of polymorphs, and would both make for great druid types; elemental combos would get a lot of synergy- a flame oracle/red dragon or primal[fire] sorcerer would make for a real solid blaster... that's just a few off the top of my head, there's lots of cool ones to think of. and that's without even getting into cross-blooded, or eldritch heritage feats...
round 2: cast quickened intensified empowered Fireball (5th lvl slot; [{15d6+60}x1.5 empower]x1.5 vulnerability- 253.125 avg dmg, DC 31ish), cast intensified empowered Fireball (3rd lvl slot; [{15d6+60}x1.5 empower]x1.5 vulnerability- 253.125 avg dmg, DC 31ish)
the devastation: in 2 rounds (possibly 1 round and a surprise round, if you're lucky) you can pick one 20' radius area and inflict an expected average damage of 804.875! admittedly, that's not factoring in successful saves (which should be rare with those DCs), improved evasion, or resistances- but even if something has resist 20 and imp. evasion, that would still be about 200 damage in 2 rounds (150ish if they make one save; that should be plenty to kill a creature that level who has improved evasion...)
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Paladin/Oracle of Lore... Let's you use Cha instead of Dex for AC and Reflex (plus a second time as a deflection bonus from Smite and from Divine Grace). Take Noble Scion of War at 1st level (Inner Sea World Guide) so you can use Cha for Initiative.
You can still take Shield Other and you still get Channel Energy from Paladin. At 7th you can start getting an inherent bonus to Int so you get more skill points. It opens up a lot of Divinations which could prove useful for you party if you don't have some else with divinations in your party. You will eventually get Time Stop so you can buff yourself before getting in the fray.
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I've been eyeballing the oracle for a while now too, and I agree that it's hard to find a mystery that has more than two or three good revelations-- besides Battle.
I agree with the suggestion of the Lore mystery. You get CHA to AC, and you get plenty of ways to make Knowledge and other skill checks, so you can sort of double as a skill character. You also get to add all the "symbol" spells to your repertoire, which might be better even than Unsanctioned Knowledge (still won't work with Arcane Strike though).
If blasting appeals to you, the Flame mystery isn't bad either. You can increase your base speed and gain a Fly speed as well, but mostly you deal 31 flavors of fire damage.