Favored Class vs Half-Elf Multitalented Bonuses


Rules Questions


Rolling up a Half-Elf Inquisitor, and it struck me that there is no definitive answer in the books or errata (or on this site that I can find) that explicitly states "officially" whether or not the Half-Elf Multitalented trait stacks with or replaces the standard Favored Class bonuses.

Multitalented
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/coreRaces/halfElves.ht ml#_multitalented

Multitalented Mastery (also affected)
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/coreRaces/halfElves.ht ml#_multitalented-mastery

Favored Class
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes.html#_favored-class

This is an unforeseen Min/Max scenario that would make Half-Elves A LOT more appealing for Multiclassed characters.

Example in my case:
Half-Elf Inquisitor, I am declaring my Multitalented Favored Classes are Inquisitor and Fighter, allowing me to take a +1 Skill Point or +1 Hit Point whenever I go up in either class. Then there is the standard +1 Skill Point or +1 Hit Point that everyone gets for Favored Class as a separate item, which is how the current rules read. They way I read it, they partially Stack! Therefore, I can take the Base Inquisitor 6 + IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) plus Favored Class (+1 Skill point AGAIN) for a total of 10 Skill Points at First Level! There are 3 interpretations, but none are explicitly stated:

1) Multitalented REPLACES the standard Favored Class Bonus, making this whole argument moot... At First Level I get Base Inquisitor 6 + IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) for total of 9 Skill Points, and at Second Level I only get Base Fighter 2 plus IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) for a total of 5 Skill Points.

2) They do stack, but only when advancing the FIRST Favored Class taken at First Level where the standard Favored Class bonus applies to your First Favored Class taken at Level 1. This is how I believe these are intended to work together, so if/when I advance in my Second Favored Class (Fighter), I CANNOT take the standard Favored Class Bonus - Only the Multitalented bonus. Therefore taking Second Level Fighter, I can take the Base Fighter 2 plus IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) for a mere Total of 5 Skill Points at Second Level. Which in my opinion, especially in this combination, puts more favor on my wanting to level in my First Favored Class.

3) They do stack cumulatively with BOTH Favored Classes for those that are Multitalented. Therefore, taking Second Level Fighter, I get the Base Fighter 2 plus IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) plus Favored Class (+1 Skill point AGAIN) for a total of 6 Skill Points at Second Level.

If later on I decide to take a level or two in Cleric AND take Multitalented Mastery at any point, the retroactive bonus of scenarios 2 & 3 would apply as well for the Cleric levels taken.

I understand the easiest solution is that option 1 is the answer, but I believe the Fairest solution is Options 2 or 3 since everyone gets this bonus with their Favored Class; therefore, bolstering the attractiveness of Half-Elf without significantly unbalancing the Race.

I look forward to an official verdict and errata from Paizo's developers.

Thank you...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

If you think that Multitalented, a trait, equals the power of a full feat (Toughness), you are definitely reading things wrong.

You don't get cumulative benefits. You get two favored classes, and when levelling in either one, you can get the standard FC benefits. This is the power level of a trait. Any other race doesn't get FC benefits in one of those classes.

Any other reading basically blows the power level of a trait out of the water.

==Aelryinth


I understand where you're coming from, but there are some pretty powerful Traits available that rival Feats or even grant a Feat... Equally there are some Feats out there that are nerfed to rival a minor Trait.

My interpretation has nothing to do with reading things wrong and I don't think it blows anything out of the water, and that's why I posted to get clarification from someone in the know at Paizo. I'm sure there are others out that that have run into the same interpretation conflict who have deferred to a GM Ruling rather than getting the publisher to clarify the intent.

Cheers!


Just realized there is potentially an Option 4...

They don't stack, but can be taken in the other stat. Therefore if one goes up in either Multitalented Favored Class, they can take a +1 Skill Point or +1 Hit Point, but when they apply the Favored Class bonus on cannot take the same bonus - You can only take +1 Skill Point AND +1 Hit Point ONCE per level. Therefore, in my case of my Half-Elf Inquisitor/Fighter combo, I can take a +1 Skill Point for Multitalented and +1 Hit Point for Favored Class bonus, or vise verse, as long as I am leveling in one of the two Favored Classes. However, this would be retroactive if I take a Third Class later on along with Multitalented Mastery. Multitalented Mastery is what unbalances this scenario, and blows it out of the water.

Shadow Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Any other reading basically blows the power level of a trait out of the water.

You're thinking of race traits, which are supposed to be half a feat.

Multitalented is a racial trait, and some of these are as good as or better than feats. Examples include the human bonus feat or Tengu swordtraining (Martial and Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a large number of weapons). Multitalented is listed as a 2 RP trait in the race builder, which means it should be about even with "specific bonus feat" in usefulness.

That said, I'm still pretty sure Multitalented is not supposed to stack favoured class benefits in any way.

Reason 1 is the KISS principle - stacking favoured class benefits is needlessly complicated, so that's 1 point for Option 1.

Second, the intent of the feat is to make half-elves more efficient multiclassers (hence, multitalented). Option 1, 3, and 4 fulfill this intent by making both favoured classes equally beneficial. Option 2 does not achieve this intent, since if one favoured class gets a double favoured class benefit, the half-elf still has incentive (as you pointed out) to take levels in one favoured class over the other. -1 point Option 2.

3 and 4 are much better than a feat. If you pick HP as your first favoured class bonus, you've effectively gained Toughness, but on top of still having your floating favoured class bonus from your first favoured class, you also get a second class with an second favoured class bonus, and you have the option at every level to take something other than the HP as your first favoured class bonus. Since you can easily get benefits that are greater than the Toughness feat, and you also have a great deal of flexibility, this interpretation is significantly better than a feat. Since Multitalented (worth 2 RP) should be no better than a specific feat benefit (eg Toughness), 3 and 4 are likely too powerful. -1 point Options 3 and 4.

Option 1: 1 point
Options 2, 3, 4: -1 point

Option 1 wins.

EDIT: I agree that multitalented isn't a great trait, but Half-elves are still not a bad race overall. They get the same flexible ability score bonus as humans and half-orcs. Compared to half-orcs, they get +2 to a more useful skill, elven immunities are about even with orc ferocity, Skill Focus (tradeable for EWP) is about even with weapon familiarity, and while darkvision is a bit better than low-light, half-elves get Multitalented (or trade it for something), so that's about even. It's a bit harder to compare with humans, but I'd put Skill Focus/EWP plus elven immunities about on par with the single bonus feat, and keen senses + low-light + multitalented isn't that far off from a skill point per level.


Is that how multi talented works? I thought you just picked two favored classes. I don't think it means you get another favored class point on top of the regular one. I believe the multitalented mastery feat supports this. view.


C.M. Ramos 136 wrote:

Example in my case:

Half-Elf Inquisitor, I am declaring my Multitalented Favored Classes are Inquisitor and Fighter, allowing me to take a +1 Skill Point or +1 Hit Point whenever I go up in either class. Then there is the standard +1 Skill Point or +1 Hit Point that everyone gets for Favored Class as a separate item, which is how the current rules read.

Uh, what? No, multi-talented just lets you treat both Fighter and Inquisitor as a Favored Class, so leveling as either one gives you +1 skill or +1 HP (or an alternate bonus). There's no more to it and I can't even begin to see how you think it works in any other way.

Grand Lodge

Davick wrote:
Is that how multi talented works? I thought you just picked two favored classes. I don't think it means you get another favored class point on top of the regular one. I believe the multitalented mastery feat supports this. view.

Multi-talented only comes into play if you multi-classed. So a Half-Elf who is both a Fighter and a Wizard can get favored class bonuses for both classes if those were the classes he picked. If said Half-Elf is only single classed, the trait has absolutely no effect at all.


C.M. Ramos 136 wrote:

Rolling up a Half-Elf Inquisitor, and it struck me that there is no definitive answer in the books or errata (or on this site that I can find) that explicitly states "officially" whether or not the Half-Elf Multitalented trait stacks with or replaces the standard Favored Class bonuses.

(snip)

1) Multitalented REPLACES the standard Favored Class Bonus, making this whole argument moot... At First Level I get Base Inquisitor 6 + IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) for total of 9 Skill Points, and at Second Level I only get Base Fighter 2 plus IntMod(+2) plus Multitalented (+1 Skill Point) for a total of 5 Skill Points.

Option one is correct - All multi-talented lets you do is get the favored class bonus for two classes. This includes any alternate favored class options - for instance, your inquisitor could take the "Add +1/4 to the number of times per day the inquisitor can change her most recent teamwork feat" option instead of the +1 HP or Skill. Taking Multitalented Master has the same effect, but for all classes you may have and applies retroactively to classes that didn't earn a bonus already.

Example: You have a Rogue 2/fighter 2/cleric 2:

Non half-elf: Favored class for one class (effectively +2 HP/Skill/Alternate)
Half-elf: Favored class bonus for two classes (effectively +4 HP/Skill/Alternate)
Hel-elf with Multitalented Mastery (favored class bonus for all classes, (effectively +6 HP/Skill/Alternate)

I hope this helps.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, Multi-talented just means that half-elves choose two favoured classes instead of one.

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